(Court Reconvened - December 12, 2001)
The Court: Irwin, PCJ; The Crown: Brent Klause; The accused: herself
So I suspect if Ms. Marcotte is ready to go and wants to proceed, we're looking at a new trial date some time in the new year. I'm not sure how much time was reserved on December 20th.
The Court: It's a Prelim, isn't it?
Mr. Klause: Prelim. I'm sorry, yes, a Prelim set for the next date. I think we should probably have a day or two given the fact that she's acting for herself, and in my experience, when accused act for themselves in files of this nature, the Court spends a lot of time telling the accused what he or she cannot do in terms of cross-examining, how to phrase questions, whether her admissions -- there -- there will be a voir dire on a statement she gave to her employer. There are lots of legal issues here, which is why I've repeatedly encouraged Ms. Marcotte to seek counsel, but obviously we're not making any progress on that.
So there are a lot of issues to be dealt with at trial -- I don't think we'll get them all done on the 20th of December.
Ms. Marcotte: Can I say something?
The Court: Certainly.
Ms. Marcotte: To the phone call he was referring to, he called me and he basically told me, you know, get a lawyer, it's in your best interest to get a lawyer. But then he -- he went on to laugh at me, to say that I did not know what I was doing, and I don't know if that's intimidating, but it was really intimidating to me. Like he phoned and he laughed and I repeatedly told him not to laugh, and he -- he was laughing at me, telling me that I don't know what I'm doing and -- and this is where this whole intimidating thing started, with that. He phoned me and -- sure, he said, well, yeah this is -- it's in your best interest to get a lawyer, but he also told me that I didn't know what I was doing and laughed at me.
Mr. Klause: I still share that opinion, Your Honour. The context of our conversation was I asked her what -- if she knew how to make an objection, what a Prelim was. She has no knowledge whatsoever, and I may have chuckled, I don't think it was a laugh, it was more of a chuckle. I said, Ms. Marcotte, really, please, you qualify for Legal Aid, get a lawyer. You're showing me -- your answers indicate to me that you have no idea what's happening here, please obtain counsel.
The Court: Ms. Marcotte, I -- I can't comment on what went on before between you and the Crown, but what I can tell you will happen in the future is that when the Preliminary Hearing is underway, given the nature of the charge here, it's going to be -- some of the evidence will be very complex, and I'm not sure you're in a position to be able to adequately cross-examine. But let's assume for the moment that you successfully get through the Preliminary Hearing, you've elected to be tried by a Queen's Bench judge and jury. It's a very complicated process. Starting first with the jury selection. Understanding the challenges. Then -- then to proceed to present evidence, to make your opening address to the jury, to have -- to respond to the Crown's evidence, cross-examine Crown witnesses.
Ms. Marcotte: And if it does go beyond a Preliminary Hearing I probably will get a lawyer.
The Court: Well, why wouldn't you get one for the Preliminary Hearing? You're placing yourself at a tremendous disadvantage unnecessarily, and in placing yourself at the disadvantage, you are putting your future in jeopardy. I don't know who has given you advice, and it's not for me to guess, but let me give you a piece of advice. You need a lawyer.
I have people come before unrepresented all the time. And from my experience on the Bench, they're at a distinct disadvantage to those accused who do have lawyers. The other thing that I have to be concerned about is the time that this process takes the Court. You've already been granted one adjournment, I'm going to adjourn again.
Sir, what is your name?
Mr. Klassen: My name is Richard Klassen and she was not granted an adjournment.
The Court: Please leave the court -- please leave the courtroom.
Mr. Klassen: The Crown was granted an adjournment.
The Court: Please leave the courtroom.
Clerk: You've been asked to leave.
Mr. Klassen: I'll be back.
The Court: Come here. Bring him back. Be very careful. Be very careful. I've asked you to leave politely, now leave politely without making any smart remarks.
Mr. Klassen: Can I speak?
The Court: No, you can't.
Mr. Klassen: Well, you've asked me to come back in front of the Court, could I speak? Just on this -- the matter that --
The Court: What did I just say? You're disruptive to the courtroom.
As I was saying, Ms. Marcotte, I'm going to grant you the adjournment so that you can get further evidence, so you can get the disclosure. But I'm -- you're not going to get another adjournment. Do you understand that?
Ms. Marcotte: I didn't get the adjournment of my Preliminary Hearing the first time, the Crown did.
The Court: Well, that may well be the case, I'm just reading the notes here. It says, "Adjournment granted at defence request."
Ms. Marcotte: Well, that was because of -- they -- like, Mr. Macnab and I had a phone conversation again as well, and he had told me that they were going to adjourn the -- they were going to adjourn it. He was going to ask for an adjournment, that's what was our phone conversation. And I was all willing to go and I was ready for an adjournment that day -- or I was ready to go on that day, but he wanted the adjournment and he told me he did. And then he comes into the courtroom that day and he -- he said that, oh well, we're ready to go. So he threw me off guard on every -- on our phone conversation that we had.
The Court: All right. All right. I'll accept that explanation, but again, you'll have to be ready to go ahead at the new trial date. All right?
Ms. Marcotte: Yeah.
The Court: Now can we affix a new Preliminary Hearing -- I shouldn't say trial.
Mr. Klause: We don't have the book here, Your Honour, I think we should take it down to number four and we can have the master book and find date that's convenient to Ms. Marcotte.
The Court: All right. Ms. Marcotte, what's going to happen now is I'm going to adjourn this matter to courtroom number four because I don't have -- we don't have the trial book here, in other words, the book that's used to book courtrooms. All right, so you'll have to go down to courtroom number four, and at that time a new date and time will be set for your Preliminary Inquiry. All right. Do you have any idea of how many -- were you intending to call witnesses? You know you don't have to.
Ms. Marcotte: Yeah, I know that. I'm quite -- I'm positive that we probably won't, but I'm not quite sure yet.
The Court: All right. That's -- all right. Well, that's the usual practice, it's just the Crown. How many Crown witnesses will there be?
Mr. Klause: There's two so far, but depending on the disclosure, we may have to call all the employees. It's one of those situations where we're suggesting Ms. Marcotte stole the $8,000, but we may have to call the other 12 people or so who worked there to say, we didn't steal anything. So, but two real essential witnesses, and perhaps 12 -- up to 12 shorter witnesses.
The Court: All right. Thank you.
Mr. Klause: Thank you, Your Honour.
(Court adjourned - December 12, 2001)
(Court reconvened - December 12, 2001)
Court: White PCJ
Mr. Klause: Can you page Tracey Marcotte, please? Your Honour, this is Ms. Marcotte. Ms. Marcotte is representing herself on an employee theft situation. We've set a pre-trial in front of Judge Irwin upstairs in number six. The matter has been set for Preliminary Inquiry December the 20th. Ms. Marcotte's now asking for more disclosure and we're not going to be able to get it to her by December the 20th, so it's the consent (INAUDIBLE) we're setting a new trial date.
So she's acting for herself. Judge Irwin tried to talk her into a lawyer, but she doesn't want a lawyer, so it's an unrepresented accused on a fairly complicated employee theft Prelim. I think we should probably set a full day, and the first full day the Crown has available to Ms. Marcotte is May the 27th. I'm not sure it that's satisfactory to her or not.
Ms. Marcotte: No. This -- no, it's not, Your Honour. This has been dragged out for --
The Court: Oh, yeah, but that -- that's --
Ms. Marcotte: -- a long time.
The Court: Well, I can see -- well, no, the Information was sworn August 31st. Okay. And -- okay. You were first before the Court September 6th, that was adjourned until November 20th for Prelim. Represents self. Crown ready to proceed, adjourn granted at defence request due to late disclosure, November 20th. It was set for a Prelim for December 20th, and what's the other issue in terms of disclosure now?
Mr. Klaus: Ms. Marcotte gave our office a Notice on December the 2nd requesting more disclosure. And it's one of these employee thefts where they have to go literally through boxes and boxes of till tapes and receipts to find the disclosure she wants.
Now, technically speaking, as I just explained to Judge Irwin, I don't think her request is that out of line --
The Court: Yeah.
Mr. Klause: -- but it's simply not possible to get it done between now and December --
The Court: But now and December 20th, not at this time of year. Okay. Now there's nothing else full days available? There's -- any half days available back to back or anything?
Mr. Klause: I haven't talked to Ms. August -- I haven't talked to Ms. Augustin about that. I could perhaps have it just set down (INAUDIBLE) and talk to her to see if she has it, but I think -- there's a potential for between two and 15 Crown witnesses.
The Court: Oh, so we better go a full day.
Mr. Klause: An unrepresented accused, Your Honour, you'll be in as a --
The Court: Yeah, May 28th, is that it?
Mr. Klause: There's a voir dire.
The Court: What courtroom?
Mr. Klause: And there's several other issues, it's fairly complicated.
The Court: Okay. Yeah. May 28th, that's the date we've got. That's all we've got available. That's the way the system works.
Mr. Klause: That's May 28th -- I'm sorry, May 27 in courtroom number eight for Prelim set all day.
Mr. Klause: And that gives Ms. Marcotte (INAUDIBLE) changes her mind about a lawyer, she can still get a lawyer.
The Court: Yes, Yeah. Number eight, they'll give you a notice there. Thank you.
(End of proceedings on tape recordings)
(Court adjourned - December 12, 2001)