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Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay

Confession coercion strategy in the Rafay Burns case: This provides a detailed analysis of the RCMP sting and is the key to the entries on these pages

Chronological List of Significant Entries page two

< < < transcript A

Transcript "B"
June 28 1995, Royal Scott Hotel, Victoria

B3 Miyoshi and Burns discuss the consequences of their late arrival, and whether Gary and Al will be angry with them.

B18 Miyoshi asks Burns how careful they should be about divulging information revealing their personal identities. Burns remarks that Al and Gary have the resources to know precisely who they are and could access any information associated with their names in the public domain.

B26 Gary inquires as to whether Burns or Miyoshi are comfortable with the tasks before them. Miyoshi asks a question about the length of time during which they will be performing the criminal tasks required, to which Gary responds "Ask no questions, receive no answers, man."

B52 Gary introduces alcohol and encourages Burns and Miyoshi to drink.

B53 Gary requests that Burns and Miyoshi drink with such persistence that Miyoshi, with a modicum of polite irony, says, "Don't hurt me."

B61 Al reprimands Burns for not cautioning him in advance of his arrival at Burns house that Burns house was bugged. Burns says that he thought he had cautioned him that both his house and his phone would be bugged.

B62 Al states that he has confidential police reports detailing forensic evidence believed by the police to be incriminating to Burns.
Al: "Well, they have you in a pretty big fucking way down there... the report I read knows you did it"Al goes on to explain the supposed forensic evidence and the supposed meaning of this.
B64 Al elaborates on the forensic evidence.

B64 Al: "If you want me to help you I can help you. But, you're gonna help me." "Well, what you did today. Keep on doing things like this today but in a bigger way"

B65 Burns indicates his disinterest in Al's offer by going on about the (then) emerging independent film market in response to Al's demand that Burns "help" him out.

B66 Al: "Urn, let's be straight forward with each other right now because I've got some other things in motion here, that are gonna look after you, if in fact, things start working out between you and I. They don't, that's the end."

B66 Al: "What went on down there that I got-that I got to fuckin' worry about covering up for you and destroying for you." "...how did that hair get in the shower with the blood in... (ellipses in original)" "...let's be straight forward with each other right now because I've got some other things in motion that are going to look after you, if in fact things start working out between you and I. They don't, that's the end. But what, what do I have to
worry about what else that's gonna come back and bite you in the ass?" "Tell me about the shower (etc. etc.) He asks Burns to explain how blood came to be in the shower.
Burns objects, eventually saying, "I can't say anything that'll help you..."
Al: "Yeah, you can. You know why, 'cause I gotta know what else I got to take care of. That is why."

B67 Al: "he's made inquiries down there. Or he's asked to see a certain file. Now, before he goes askin' around in the fuckin' dark getting more. I wanna know." "you were there I fuckin' wasn't now this-this is no time to play games." (He explains further that he needs to know precisely what to look for and cannot waste the opportunity by simply making enquiries.)

B67-8 Al: "How did this blood get in the shower for starters? Did you wash out the fuckin' murder weapon in it or what? That's what I want to fuckin' find out. Be straight with me and I can fuckin' maybe look after you. Don't be straight with me I can not fuckin' look after you. I told you before I'll look after everybody who works for me and I'll spend more money to look after them while we're there truthful and fuckin' straight forward with me. If they're not I am not going to stick my fuckin' neck in the dark."

B68 Burns suggests that the important details could be gleaned from police reports and television reports.
Al: "You were there, I wasn't. I'm getting too fucked with the police telling you to fuck your head. I'm getting too fucked with the fuckin' TV tells ya to, uh, make fuckin' money off a TV. If I'm gonna go down there and fuckin' look after you so you'll be able to work for me and make me money, I wanna know. 'Cause like I said, I will not be going
fuckin' back and I can not fuckin' risk going back two or three times, start fuckin' askin for little bits of information every fuckin' week or two or three weeks. It's gonna come out in one fuckin' shot. It'll be taken care of in one shot. Its gonna cost me one lump some of money. Nobody in their right mind's gonna keep going back fuckin' day in and day out. And that's what I gotta fuckin' know. That's why I'm talkin' to you right here without Jimmy, me and you, 'cause he's not named in the reports, you are. That's what I say, you'll be the one that's lookin' after my business, not Jimmy or anybody else. You can take care of business the way you took care of it down there, you can always look after the business I want looked after. But I cannot fuckin' do it without having you on my side so that if one thing happens I'm looked after. Now what the fuck went on down there so I can go look after everything fully? And once it's looked after we'll talk again and then you'll know you're clear. They're culturing your fuckin' D.N.A. is the word they used right now."

B69 Al asks Burns how his hair came to be in the shower mixed with blood.
Burns: , "Well I guess at some point I must've been in the shower and, uh, at some point there was blood in the shower and, uh,"
Al: "Forget about it fuckin', you're fuckin' makin' circles. I didn't come down on last night's train. How did the dead people's blood get in the fuckin' shower with your hair?"

B69 Al: (Asks detailed questions) "Because I want to know what the fuck went on. Did you wash the murder weapon in there or what the fuck went on here? That's what I wanna fuckin' know. So when I go back to this fuckin' lab they don't start fuckin' havin, weapons go missing or what."

B70 Al: "Well, when he goes back and asks, well I'm trying to 'look after you, if you don't want looked after tell me so." Al then asks specific questions. Burns asks Al how it will help for him to discuss specific details if it will be of no practical assistance to Al's endeavour to sabotage the case.
Al: "How did your hair and blood get in the shower?" Burns asks how this will help.
Al: "'Cause I'm asking you. " "If you can't tell me that then it makes me think you're hiding other stuff that when I go down there I get fuckin' half the story and I'm gonna be coming out with half a fuckin' answer."

B70 Al: "... I'm asking you [about the allegations] for one reason, to protect my own ass...."

B71 Al explains that Burns's lack of cooperation may cause someone to be charged with a crime: "somebody down there or somebody in someplace when I ask them to do something for isn't going to be stickin' their fuckin' neck in the dark. You know what it's like going out with your head in the dark and only knowing half the fuckin' story you're trying to find something out. Somebody get fuckin' bit." "And nobody that works for me is going to get bit. If they get bit I get bit. You know what I mean?" (The implication being that the charged party would inform on Al.)

B71 Burns: " . . . if I were to fuck you around, okay, I would just assume that I would, with or without a bullet in my head (poor transcription). . ..that is the power you have over me... I'm not going to fuck you around for that very goddamn reason. (Burns then says that even if he were in jail Al could have him killed, and then continues) if I were to do something to you, anything, try and, like set you up or whatever that I would be fucked...."

B71 Al: "...Right now you need my fuckin' help."

B72 Contraversion of Klein's theory that they told Burns they wanted something on him, submitted in the BC appeal factum and in oral argument.
Al: "Hold it. I'm not looking for something on you."

B72 Burns refers to the article he read about a man boasting to undercover officers.

B72 Al: "It's time you were straight with me and I'm straight with you and I'll tell you if I'm gonna help you once I got the whole story. 'Cause now you'll know exactly how I'm going to help you. Why don't you tell me that so I get the fuckin' story so I make sure when somebody fuckin' goes in there once and does what they gotta do, he ain't gotta go back the second time for something that I don't know about." "...they're not going in there dark."

B72-73 Al: "I want it fuckin' clear so it's no big fuckin' lingo on it so I know when I ask a question I'm askin' you cause I fuckin' wanna know. So let's be straight forward with each other as much as we can right now and we decide at the end if we're gonna fuckin' answer more questions you're gonna fill in more blanks for me, okay? 'Cause I'm not sending people down there dark."

B73 Al: "'Cause if they get bit in the ass, I get bit in the ass." "I get bit in the ass, it hurts."

B73 Al: "... Should your hair be there? What did you do? I want to know. Like how many reports do I got to look for?"

B74 Burns explains that any body matter at the crime scene is explained by his presence and innocent activities at the house, and indicates his cynicism about the supposed evidence.

B74 Al: "Why'd you push boxes over for?" Burns says that for different reasons they had to handle many boxes as the Rafays had just moved in. He gives as an example an occasion wherein he and Ffafay were searching for one of his old essays.

B75 Al: "How did ya kill these guys? bodies of 'em." "How did ya kill these guys? No, just give me some idea what I'm lookin' at when you're saying you're [sic] hairs on the bodies of 'em." Al asks for specific details. "If ya want my help, you're gonna have to fuckin' come forward with me." " . ..when I fuckin' ask you how you killed those guys you can not fuckin' say uh, the medical report"

B76 Burns: "...what am I gonna do, like oh yeah he toasted a guy, like you know, it's a day late, ya know, I'm, I'm dead in my bed kinda thing. Like obviously ya know, he just says what he fuckin' feels like" (Burns refers to the open remarks Gary makes about murders he's committed because of his secure knowledge that if Burns does not prove to be trustable, he will be murdered.)

B76-77 Al : 'I... What I can't figure out would your hair be on the bodies You fuckin' waste someone, why ? That's what I'd like, that's what I'm tryin to figure out the whole fuckin' night."

B77 Al asks questions about details of the evidence that require inculpatory explanations. Burns: ".if there [sic] scenario is that, ya know Sebastian has killed someone.. ."
Al: "Let's forget about this scenario, they know you killed him.. That's in the report is fuckin'. Gary was talkin' about green and black. That in, that report is so fuckin' uh, white whatever, so clear, it's unreal."

B77 Al: "Why would your hair be on the bodies?" (...so clear unreal) "You kill me and your hair falls off. I'm sittn' here thinkin' okay maybe ya planted sonethin' on there to fuckin' make it look like as though maybe ya did do it or something"" elaborates. then "...I'm thinkin' ...you're gonna plant things here and fuck up the investigation"

B78 Al: "So fuckin' be straight forward with me. That's all I want." Al continues to ask detailed questions. " I just wanna know so I know what I'm lookin' at when I go in there. . . . I'm not fuckin' gonna in there dark okay?" " If I was there I'll tell ya right now I'd have all these answers and I'd be knowin' what the fuck to do."

B78 Al asks questions about details of the evidence that require inculpatory explanations.

B78 Al: "Now, how did the blood splatters get in the shower that's what I'm wondering now too did you put those there on purpose?" "How'd blood get in the shower that's not could's fuckin' do nothing wrong to anybody. I must wanna know so I know what I'm lookin' at when I go in there. Is there a certain fuckin' tools I gotta be lookin' for in his lab, uh, whatever. . . . Did ya wash the fuckin' uh, whatever the fuck you used in the shower or what? not gonna fo in there dark okay?"

B79 Again, asks questions about details of the evidence that require inculpatory explanations.

B79 Al: " tell me the bit about the showers, just give me that and I'll leave it alone. And I'll talk to, find out what else 1'11 come back ask ya more." "...did you wash the fuckin' weapon in the shower? That's all I wanna know. Like fuck, am I lookin' for some other fuckin' uh weapons or somethin', that's all I wanna know". "Picture this. I go back to a certain individual, I say here's what I want. I wanna know if there's Sebastian's hair on these bodies.

B80-81 Al : "Answer me this. Why did you guys do this? Money?" "Cause I just wanna know, I wanna know what kind of guys I'm going to be workin' with.... Let's fuckin' worry about you not going' to fuckin' jail, but why you do it is for my peace of mind."

B81 Al persists in asking why.

B82 Al: "None of his hairs fell into any incriminating places. Now why, why, did yours? That's what I want to know. Were you being set up by this guy or what?"
Burns: "No."
Al: "So why is your hair all there, and his isn't?" "Why do you think?... 'cause I don't fuckin' know. Why would you both be three during the fuckin uh job and uh , your hair's there and his isn't? Like is he setting you up or what?"

B83 Al: "It's pretty serious shit man." "I'll help you, but I won't help you unless you fuckin' uh, don't play games with me 'cause I will not be set,... I will not be setup by anybody."
Burns: "(Sighs) Cees, I'm not setting you up!"
Al: "So just answer that question there."
Here it is spelt out clearly: Burns must say he committed the crimes, because to do anything else is to "play games" and Burns has already been told in certain terms that this is equivalent to setting Al up, something that will not be allowed to happen.

B84 Al: "I know if it was against me and that fuckin' guy sittin' over there was clean I'd be thinkin', huh? What went on here man?"

B86 Al: "I'm not fuckin' having' my people go down there blind." "So I, I got some questions about that I, I'm thinking of I know they're you're gonna ask me and I, uh I don't have a lot of time to fuckin', back and forth, back and forth 'cause I know right now all you do with this is one time. 'Cause they're not going to be able to go back twice. 'Cause once things are done it's done." "Those things I gotta know. How about your clothes like these are fuckin' things that this fuckin' guy ask me a few questions, I said well fuck I don't know."

B86 Burns answers: "not to my knowledge" to a specific question, and Al replies "What do you mean not to your knowledge you were fuckin' there don't give me the fuckin' games okay."

B87 Al: (Burns gives a non-inculpatory answer to a specific question). "You ain't give me the straight goods here Sebastian. What makes you think someone's going' into the fuckin' dark?" He demands answers which would necessarily be inculpatory. Burns states that potential physical evidence at the crime scene would be a result of his having stayed at the house, to which Al replies, "Okay. Stop the fuckin' bullshit there. Stop the bullshit there. Right now you're all but fuckin' lying to me."

B88 Burns: "I'm not goddamn lying to you."
Al: "You are fuckin' givin' me this song and dance and everything you just told me. That you told me last time I talked to you that, which I don't know fuck all about. You come back and found these fuckin' bodies. You found them, the report I fuckin' read. Fuckin' basically spells out black and white. That, the police fuckin' know you killed these people. The fuckin' DNA is being cultured right now and they're puttin' together fuckin', big fuckin' case against you. So I'm not gonna have this bullshit, you lying to me now, or fuckin' uh, you come back and found these fuckin' bodies. You must think I come down on last night's train. The minute you start thinkin' that about
me,... (ellipses in original)"
Burns: "Holy Christ,"
Al: "...And this fuckin',... (both ellipses in original)" "...make it clear so I don't misunderstand you because I'm not havin' fuckin my ass get bit here."
Burns: "... To be civil, tell your friends check to see if there was any blood on the fuckin' clothes."
Al: "You be civil with me. Don't fuckin' lie to me. Don't take me for
a fuckin' stupid man."
Burns: "I'm not takin' you for a stupid man."
Al: "You're always started tellin' me you come back and found these bodies that I fuckin' know for a fact,... (ellipses in original)"
Burns says that the evidence is not compelling, but that it is worthwhile checking if it could be misrepresented as incriminating.
Al: "Don't be a smart ass with me man."

B89 Al: "'Cause I'll just walk away from this in a fuckin' heartbeat. If I don't fuckin' like the feeling of it." "And I won't fuckin' care of fuckin' Sebastian BURNS." (caps in original) "I'm here 'cause I think I can fuckin' make money out of you, That's (sic) why I'm fuckin' here, don't ever get that confused with something. . . ..right now it's financial with me."
Burns's life is of no inherent value to Al. "[If you want my help] Then fuckin' start comin' straight forward with me." "I will not havin' somebody fuckin' get their ass bit off."

B91 Al: "You're not answering my questions and that's what's bother-in' me. "

B93 Al: "Don't be so fuckin' evasive with me, tell me. It's no big fuckin' deal to me. But I don't fuckin' want someone's fuckin' ass gettin' bit."

B93-94 Al : "Well, what did you use? So now you look at me with that holy fuck he's up to somethin' heavy. You know why I ask these questions?" "The next report I read I wanna be fuckin' sure that everything's covered." "That's why I want to fuckin' know." "Just give me whatever you can give me and don't fuck me around." "And don't take me for an idiot"
NOTE: consult cross examination of Haslett by Beirne in the transcript of the extradition hearing, volume II ~186, for interpretation of the remarks that follow those above.

B94 Burns asks why Al is demanding specific details. Al: "The next report I read I wanna be fuckin' sure that everything's covered." Al says he doesn't want to "go back to the well".

B94 Al uses a "well" metaphor and refers to people "smelling the heat," and then, "It pays to be fuckin' sharp. Always fuckin' people killed."

B95 Al: "...I will not be able to keep fuckin', I will not have people go back." I'... I will not fuckin' have these guys go back. For the reason is, 'cause I will not lose my credibility. And look like a fuckin' buffoon of who's, who's and two. My ass ain't gonna get bit man. 'Cause right now your ass is bit big. . . . And you know I know your ass is fucked helped and I'm here to fuckin' help you. If you want to sit there and play coy with me, I tried not fuckin'. I don't have time to make any mistakes. The minute I fuckin' make this mistake being made you won't fuckin' hear from me again." "You got Gary's pager number now. Even though I don't like it, Gary's num' pager will be fuckin' thrown in the fuckin' ocean and that'll be the end of it." (The transcription may be inaccurate here, but in either case the correct inference is "If I don't like it..." as opposed to "Even though I don't like it.") "Well Sebastian here and fuckin' uh, Jimmy and the other guy are fuckin' happy. And you take a fall, you know who else takes a fall after everything's done, Guess (sic), right now, guess."
Burns: "No one. "
Al: "What do you mean no one?"
Burns: "No one."
Al: "Huh? No one? You're fuckin' stupid right now, you know who else
goes down."
B107 Burns: "You're gonna say you, right?"
Al: "Yeah "
Burns: "Okay, well."
Al: "And I can't afford to have me to go fuckin' down."
Burns: "Yeah, I know but you're not gonna go down, because theoretically speaking if you go down I'm dead so therefore you never go down, that's your power."

B107 Al: "No but it's both these guys decide... (ellipses in original)" "let's drop fuckin' uh, Sebastian and Al." "...these guys better not know about me and you are doing."

B107 Al: "... Now, I'm gonna do what I can, just one little thing - when I go back down there and start fuckin' asking to other people to do what they gonna do. They shouldn't be looking for any other reports on D.N.A. on these other two guys?"

B107 Al asks more specific questions about the crime.

B108-109 Burns says that Al ought to look for reports on Rafay, and Al responds "Okay so he was fuckin' there, don't, don't don't play games." "You don't see what I'm saying when you did these things, were you alone or not? A simple yes or no because I'll tell you right now, I'm not gonna go down there and start fuckin' looking for more files than I have to. When you did these things were you alone, that's all I want to know?" Al asks for more specific details, e.g. "... I want to know is his hair gonna be on these fuckin' dead bodies. .." "Oh I'll check but it's just gonna take more time than anything else but I want to know what I'm fuckin' asking about what I'm doing, I don't want to look like a fuckin retard when I start asking these questions."

B109 Al: "Were you alone when you did this, that's all I want to know? Like his fuckin' hair gonna be in the showers, too?"
Burns: "No."
Al: "Okay, that's all I want to know. See? Now I know, now I've got something clear in my mind, okay. That's fuckin' simple. Great. See I just want to get some simple answer so I can get some..."
Burns: "I mean or rather I should say I know he had a shower in a shower like a few days before, you know what I mean. Okay so that's what I mean like that why I say check anyhow, okay. 'Cause like... (ellipses in original)"
Al: "Okay I'll ask you this- was he there when these fuckin' people were killed? See what I'm saying? Like when you say your, your hair fuckin' hairs on the bodies, am I looking for fucking the report, report I read on you was so fuckin' black and fuckin' white it's unreal. Now, do I gotta go him and start searching other files there might be something else on him, that's, see what I'm saying?"
Burns: "Yeah I know."
Al: "Now was he there or did you just; just answer me this, did you do this alone and I'll know what I'm looking at."
Burns: "Come on man!"
Al: "Why don't you answer my question, I just want a yes or no and then I'll forget about it and then I'll know I won't go after seven thousand files. A simple yes or no is going to, answer me right if it's going to clear up my mind."

B110 Al: "I'm through beating my head against the wall, man." Burns says that Al should check on a file for Rafay because Rafay had a shower there a few days before. Al replies "Other words he wasn't and you were there alone."
Burns repeats that Al should check.
Al later says "...I got a lot of things on my mind, unanswered questions, obviously you don't want to answer me. . ..let me paint you this picture I gotta go to someone who I pay money to, who fuckin' uh, does as I ask, I got to to (probably "go" on the recording)
to him and say look remember the report you, showed me, I want all the detail for these different reasons, I want more on it, I want you to get what you can, and I'm gonna say look there's another individual who might be involved, can you search all these files for him, he's only gonna say, what the fuck do you mean might, Al." "Well then he goes through all this other process and fuckin' finds out that he wasn't, then who do I look like there a real fuckin' invisible o'tool that goes with sending, that goes with sending people in the dark. "

B111 During their argument, Al reproaches Burns, commanding "Don't raise your voice at me."

B111 Al: "When I ask you a simple question, were you alone or were you with someone and you can't answer me a simple yes or no, that makes me think that you're hiding something."

B111 Burns states that his having used a shower two days before the crime could have resulted in its seemingly incriminating presence in the shower. Later, he states that police and expert witnesses would misrepresent the evidence as they are paid to give incriminating testimony.

B112 Al : "Okay but were you alone or not, that's all, answer that fuckin' question I'll answer once in my mind, i.e. what the fuck I'll be looking for. If you're alone I'm only looking after your ass right now." "'cause one time I think and then you give me this then I think this. I just want a fuckin' answer" (ellipses in original)" "'... (ellipses in original) I don't need to hear any grey shit, that's what I'm saying." "When I leave here I don't want any grey shit."

B113 Al: "I'm gonna look after whoever who's ever fucking was involved in this fucking murder, because everything comes back to me, and back to you." "Now forget these fuckin' games and everything else. . . . But, if someone else was with you then I fuckin' have to start asking a few more questions that are gonna make me look more intelligent and they're gonna make someone think this fuckin' guy knows fuckin' quite a bit, I'm gonna fuckin' earn my money and be sure I got everything. If I go in there and ask only fuckin' grey questions, and he comes back and says uh, here's what I got and I don't know the answers then I've been fuckin' snowed, see what I'm saying?"
Burns argues that the forensic interpretation of the events, presumably the only
important fact, may not correspond with the actual crime to which Al says, "Well whatever, when I ask you a question you can't answer it, I don't need this fuckin'... (ellipses in original)" Burns later asserts that he has answered Al's questions.

B114 (continued from above) Al: "You answer in this fuckin' computer wizard fuckin' language." "The answer is yes or no." Burns says that the police and forensic experts may misrepresent the crime scene as containing conclusive evidence, and describes a scenario where someone finds a dead body and accidentally leaves his own body matter on the dead body, which would later be used by forensic experts as having fallen off during the murder.
Al: "You know what though, when you don't answer that question it makes me think that you don't trust me." And therefore Burns cannot be trusted as long as he maintains innocence or even resists incriminating himself. Al later explains that he doesn't care whether Burns trusts him, although clearly he means he doesn't care except to the extent that such a lack of trust indicates Burns's own untrustworthiness.
Al: "I don't give two fucks whether you trust me or not. I fuckin' uh, I got your fuckin' uh, basically your fuckin' future in the palm of my fuckin' hand if I want it anyway but you're gonna make money for me...."

B115 Al: "....I tired hearing about why you, what to ask him, 'cause I fuckin' know what to ask him, I don't want to to (probably "go" on tape) in there fuckin' grey when I ask for a simple fuckin' thing on someone else, and I can't fuckin' give them a fuckin' thing like yeah, he's fuckin' uh, he was there to find out exactly, pursue it fuckin' further so you know exactly what got about him. I don't him gonna in there fuckin' half assed when I tell him oh fuck yeah he might have been around the house there hut I don't think he was there when the fuckin' dirty deed happened yeah, so he only does fuckin' half the job thinking well fuck the guy doesn't know anything. If I go back and I say yeah fuck he was there, I know he was there, let's fine (sic) out exactly what the fuck they got about him?" "So, I want an answer yes or no..." "I'm, acting like fuckin', what the fuck are they gonna
find. You're saying they could find hair from five fuckin' days ago, well that's fucking great. The report I read fuckin' puts you there. You know that, I know that." "Fuck all on Atif, right. Okay now, did this guy not look fuckin' far enough or is it fuckin' that they are concentrating on you so bad they got so much against you they don't give two fucks about this Atif?"

B116 Al (after Burns's repeated suggestions that Al should check for police files on him and Rafay): "Okay but I want to know, did you do this alone or not? See you're looking at me and thinking, why the fuck should I... (ellipses in original) 'cause I want to know because I'll tell you now, if this guy comes back to me and says uh, no there's... (ellipses in original)" "And I leave here with a clear fuckin' mind I know exactly I'm fuckin' lookin' after one guy's ass to protect or we go to the fuckin' lab, there's one guy fuckin' being looked after I'm not fuckin' uh, protecting fuckin' three guys, two guys or one guy,
I'm protecting you." Al states that he has to know about everyone without priority because, "...if he ends up going down because I missed something, you're gonna go down anyway, and you go down and fuck you know me I'm going' down." "I want to know right now - yes or no?"
Burns: "Yeah, check on him."
Al: "Yes, I'm gonna check on him, but I want to know yes or no." " 'cause I'm gonna be checking on him a lot fuckin' finer, I'll be checking out fuckin' looking at fuckin' DNA so it's mixed up with that fuckin' uh, blood in the shower and everything else. . .."

B117 Al: " one phone call and I can say fuckin' forget about everything and I'm walking out of here an so are they are.

B117 Burns: "...you don't have to check on him a lot finer but urn, do a check anyhow, okay, and that's the end."
Al: "Yes or no? Don'tI only asked you a fuckin' question, don't fucking play fucking round-about games with me, you know. I ask questions because I fucking want to have clear answers to fucking look after.. . " Al explains he is looking after himself first, and Burns second, only because Burns can earn money for Al. ".one phone call and I can say fuckin' forget about everything and I'm walking out of here and so are they are. Or so, maybe because they're already involved I still gotta pay them off, that's my fuckin' big man. (in reference to the police infiltrator) . . . Work together, live together, you're happy. But don't fuckin' sell me short, and don't ever let your fuckin' friends start selling me short, 'cause you start selling me short, you'll be in the (INDECIPHERABLE) hurt, especially with what you know about yourself right now."

B119 Al once again tries to convince Burns to "work" for him, but Burns is reluctant: "I don't want to stop making it (film), I want to go with it because... beside the fact I want to do it... I bet that we could make more money off this film than whatever you throw at me..."

B124 In response to Al's query of whether Burns could kill, Burns replies "doubt it," followed by "I really think that would be very unpleasant. I don't know." After Al again asks "What if I needed it done, and the circumstances were right." Burns again responds "I, I... (ellipses in original) doubt it man 'Cause I think that be very fucking brutal. Fuckin' it'd make me an old man and my hair falls out..."

B127 Al: "You ever thought your two friends here fuckin' used you to make money?" "What I'm trying to get at, you sure there's (sic) not going to give you up." "In my fuckin' world you always got to be concerned about that."

B128 Al: "Well I just hope they don't give you up."

B163 Burns refers to the fact that, on the occasion of Al's and Gary's visit to their residence at Phillip Ave., Gary had called first to ask for the address, and Burns had asked that he or Al call back before coming, as Burns did not feel that the visit would be worthwhile, but Gary and Al simply came to the house without calling. (The wiretap recording from Phillip Ave. would contain further evidence of Burns's great distress at this particular duplicity, and at the visit in general.


Transcript "C"
July 18 1995, Ocean Point Hotel, Victoria

C9 Al: "...they're fuckin' coming to lock your ass up. Yours and your friends. But there's uh, things here that can be done very fucking quickly and very easy things, but they gotta be done quick. But you're gonna want to do them, you're gonna have to tell me you want them done, and you're gonna have to play straight with me, 'cause things are fuckin' happening quick here now. But, it can't be done without you fuckin' saying you want
it done. And, there's too many questions that are unanswered here right now. You and your friend, your fuckin' asses are going to hail. . . . It's your call, there's too many thing that are unanswered right now....So... (ellipses in original)"
Al produces a confidential (andfake) police document.
Al: "What I'm saying is a lot of things are not answered, or answered here..."

C10 Burns says that the his supposedly incriminating body matter at the crime scene could have come to be there on any of the preceding days when he was staying at the house and using the showers.

C12 Burns indicates confusion over contents of police report.
Al: "Well, I don't know, you were there, I can't, like if I knew I could fuckin' probably tell you, I don't know, and I can't start asking all these questions." "Until
I fuckin' know. And that's the bottom line." Al asks specific questions about the crime which require inculpatory answers, to which Burns responds, "...there is this possibility that there can be things that I would know about that like they're basically fabricating to look like they count..."
Al: "I don't believe they're sending a report to the lab or wherever this report is asking to fabricate fuckin' evidence."
At this disapproving response, Burns suggests the possibility of evidence which is innocently explainable but that is being misrepresented as incriminating.

C13 Al: "I'll tell you why it (Burns's non-inculpatory and hence, to Al, incomplete remarks about the evidence) doesn't stand as far as I'm concerned." " I had someone doing some checks for me, pissed off when he comes out, next thing I know this fuckin' guy gets a hold of me, I'm meeting him, he shows me this. He says look, he's supposed to be looking for a few fuckin' hairs and anything else, and he comes up with... (ellipses in original)"

C13-14 Al: "...and then he comes, and he comes up with this stuff here and he says hey unless I better what I'm looking for he says you better fuckin' come down here and fuckin' give me the facts cause I'm not fuckin' lookin' no more and uh, so now these... . ..he says there's things down there they're coming to lock your ass up. Yours and your friend. He said things got to be acted one fast if they're gonna be acted on. I'm not fuckin' going and telling him to do anything else now, half the job and blind because there's no time for any mistakes here. 'Cause I'll tell you right now, it's this close.
Now if you want my help you have to do fuckin' do as I say and things are gonna be done proper, if you don't want it, you can tell me right now and you're gonna deny ever fuckin' knowing me."

This is the sole occasion wherein Al refers to there being any possibility that Burns will not inform on Al if Burns is arrested. He has already asserted numerous times his conviction that Burns will inform on Al if arrested. In light of those numerous assertions, it would seem that the Al's suggestion that Burns "deny knowing" Al would be most reasonably interpreted as deception, as Al would not likely inform Burns that he was going to be assassinated, particularly if it was going to occur hours or days after the meeting, when Burns was least expecting it.

Nevertheless, this was one of the very few quotes that was cited in the hearing by Beirne, which encouraged Haslett to maintain that Burns had had it made clear to him that he had the option to leave Al and deny knowing him. Beirne attempted to argue this point, but he did not introduce quotes, and as such failed to persuade Haslett to admit that there was no choice.

C15 Al: "...I'll tell you why [a specific detail] matters, because forget about what the fuckin' police have in these reports for right now. What we have to deal with is getting this stuff out of the lab." "...I'm not gonna risk first of all anything with me, without knowing what I'm doing anymore, and obviously there's another person that I'm looking after one thousand percent here and it's fucking not gonna fuckin' do anything for me unless he's got fucking everything he knows he's looking for. Like could you imagine if we went to the lab and just changed some things around and all of a sudden we're fuckin' uh, dealing with some fuckin' uh, red fabric hairs that we didn't find?" "So I want to know right now."

C16 MISSING TEXT: Failure to transcribe remarks by Burns about the consistency of the physical evidence with his innocence is attributed to the changing of Tape 1 from side A to side B. Remarks by Haslett about the sabotage plan are also omitted.

C16 Al: "So, tell me what went on down there and I'm gonna tall you how I'm gonna take care of your problem. Okay 'and it has to be taken care of quick. Give me the straight goods, so I know exactly what I gotta take care of. Now if something else needs taking care of I'm gonna need your help. Start."

C17 Al asks for extremely specific information and Burns answers with supposedly incriminating information and inculpatory remarks. "Confession" begins.

C18 Al: "So I want you to start thinking fuckin' smart, because everything you tell me now I'm gonna tell you how we're gonna handle this. It's gonna fuckin' make a little bit of sense, it's gonna save you and fuckin' your friend's ass from jail"

C20 Al (about Rafay): "He can be trusted, eh?"

C21 Al: "I don't even know who he is, I gotta meet him before too long, I'll tell you that right now, 'cause when we have this plan in motion, I gotta make sure that cocksucker's solid. I mean fuckin' solid." (Later, about the future occasion of the sabotage) "...that's when uh, everybody's gotta keep their fuckin' mouth shut."

C22 Al: "How solid's Atif?" "Well why wasn't he helping you, though." (repeats this question twice) "Well I've been involved in a few jobs in my fuckin' day, and if one guys's standing around telling uh, me to do this, do that, do this, unless I'm working for him and not with him, it makes me think that fuckin' guy's a, hasn't got the balls to do it."
Burns (dismissively): "Well, whatever."
Al: "No it's not whatever. I'll tell you why it's not whatever, because I gotta be sure this cunt's solid."

C23 Burns tries to convince Al that Rafay is trustworthy. Al: "What's he think about his family fuckin' being done?"
Burns: "Nothing."
Al: "Good. As long as he's not going to break down afterwards and say oh fuck it's Sebastian" Al proceeds to ask about motives and attitudes towards incident.

C24-26 Burns describes the allegations by the alibi witnesses of suspicious behaviour as being preposterous, and in one case as being an outright fabrication.

C27 Al asks when the murder occured, and Burns claims during the screening of the movie. He then remarks that he thought Al would have presumed that based on the suggestions in the news media, but Al (Haslett) behaves as though this is a revelation.

C28 Al: "Well fuck see I didn't know that either. See fuckin', you're holding fucking things out on me... (ellipses in original) " "But I gotta know this stuff, 'cause if all of a sudden uh, someone says to me down there fuck I got this report where they found a pair of jeans in a fuckin' dumpster, I'll think holy fuck"

C28-29 Al : " It's little details like that are gonna fuck us up in the end. You see what I'm saying, you see why I get a little pissed off?"

C29 Al: "'Cause I can't afford fuck ups."

C30 Ah "I'm thinking you're thinking, I'm thinking this fuckin' guy has fuckin' planned this pretty smart. I'm still worried about little fuckin' Atif, that he's standing back there with his clothes on while you're running around the fuckin' house in your fuckin' underwear uh, using a baseball bat, as long as that fucker's solid, you know what I'm saying?" "If he ever ratted you out, no, I'm gonna tell you, because if he ever did, would he be able to say, I saw Sebastian hit my dad with a bat, was he that close enough to see that?"

C31 Al: "There's a little plan that's gonna be in motion here, it's gotta be happening in the next fuckin' short while because as I told you they are fuckin' putting things together down there, then they'll come up here and fuckin' arrest both you guys's ass"

C32 Al: "Whatever, see what I'm ask, why I'm asking these, because at the end I don't know fuckin' Jimmy coming down saying oh I knew about it before and uh, didn't I told 'em I didn't want no part of it. See why I'm saying, 'cause these three guys, these two guy with you better be fuckin' solid."

C34 Al: "Well I can't fuckin' say it enough, I hope these guys are solid."
Burns: "Well, whatever, I mean...(ellipses in original)
Al: "No not whatever, because now I'm gonna be involved in this." "Well if they helped you plan it, and they didn't rat you out ahead of time. I just wonder why Jimmy didn't go down and help you out with it."

C34 Burns is asked whether the motive had involved a plan to make a film, and Burns explains that this event actually prevented them from making a film using free equipment at Cornell University, where Rafay was enrolled and where Burns should have liked to apply.

C35 Al asks whether they feel good about the crime and on receiving an affirmative response declares "well they gotta be trustworthy"

C36 Burns asks if the sabotage is only going to occur at one lab, and asks, "How many labs they working on?" (See B100.) Al does not allow for elaboration on this topic.
Al: "Right now, I only know of one. That's with all your hair with the uh, blood and that's why I was wondering, making sure they didn't have your clothes and this fuckin' murder weapon. If you can guarantee me they haven't got those then I only have to worry about one lab right now."

C39 Al: "And there's gonna be a lot of other things, so, I'll decide then if I can trust him. I, I don't know the fuckin' guy so I don't know." "I have one concern in my mind and I always have concerns in the back of my mind, is he let you swing that baseball bat and he didn't help you."

C40 Al: "I notice he also stayed up in Canada when you were doing, doing the job, that's also on my mind." "What I like about it, he knew it was gonna happen beforehand and he didn't even fuckin' stop you so, and he didn't rat you out."

C52 LARGE TEXT OMISSION: Failure to transcribe remarks by Burns about police prevarication and about his friends' and his conviction that Al will kill them lf they displease him is attributed to change of Tape 2 from side A to side B.

C52 Burns: "...I shouldn't even really be saying this because I know that they're not gonna you know fuck anyone around but just for your peace of mind, you could just confidently think well those guys wouldn't fuck me around because they'd know that you know they'd be dead as soon as fuckin', two days after they did..." (NB there is a portion of the recording on this same page as this excerpt which would contain some preceding remarks by Burns about this same subject that was not transcribed by the RCMP)
Al: "I want to be sure they don't because once they do let's say, say... (ellipse in original)"

C53 Burns (continuing after above): "No well, I guess what I mean is that they are, they are fuckin' smart enough to know what will happen, because...(ellipses in original)"
Al: "And I'm smart enough to make sure I'll find out about them (Rafay and Miyoshi) before, see." "See what I mean? But those are two things in my mind that I just, I gotta be sure I check 'em, you can understand what I'm saying, right?" "You did all the work and they just sat back and did the planning and fuckin' said let's let Sebastian do the job."


Transcript "D"
July 19 1995, Ocean Point Hotel, Victoria

D3 Gary describes himself assaulting the man who was one day late with his payment and says that he told the man that "uh next time it happened I'd chop his fuckin' uh, old lady's hand off. And fuckin uh, 'til you paid she fuckin' sittin' there bleeding."

D5 Gary: "Yeah some guy waiting on the side of the road (LAUGHING -INDECIPHERABLE)".
In the indecipherable portion Gary describes a man as bleeding after being assaulted because of Burns's error in counting the money.

D7 Gary says that he believes he broke the jaw of the man whom he assaulted.

D10 Gary: "Yeah he had a fuckin' attitude. But not anymore, man."

D11 Burns calls Rafay and informs him that Gary will be picking him up. Burns asks Rafay to bring from the hotel room a little plastic bag which Burns says contains Burns's contact lenses. Burns at this time does not wear or own contact lenses or spectacles of any kind, nor has he at any time previously. Rafay is aware of this, as would be confirmed by the wiretap evidence from the residence at Phillip Ave. The bag contains, among other things, the hair that Burns collected the previous night. He has already told Al that it is unfit for their purposes, and does not actually show it to Al when it has
arrived. It is reasonable to assume that Rafay would be aware of the contents of the bag and would have have cause to speculate on its significance before his arrival.

D15 Al: "I been thinking all fucking day . . . I just . . . nothing's come back . . . (all ellipses in this excerpt in original) That's why Atif better be fuckin' solid. If I don't think he is, I'm out of here."

D16 Burns describes how the fingerprint on the box is explained by his and Rafay's having searched through the boxes (innocently) prior to the crime.

D16-D17 Burns describes how the police lied and stated that nothing was stolen from the house during the crime and hindered any attempts to determine whether anything actually was stolen. Describes police as "pigs".

D22 Burns tries to persuade Al to leave him to make the film, and offers to pay for Al's inconvenience with proceeds from the film, rather than by performing work for Al.

D27 Al remarks that even in legitimate business practice he would intimidate any competitors from depriving him of his business.

D31 Al (to RAFAY): "Without any trust we'll never be able to work together. Do you understand that." ""... Trust and honesty is the biggest thing in my life. People work for me, they're not honest with me, then I don't trust them. They'll never fuckin' work for me again and they'll never fuckin' make a dime off me. And I'll never fuckin' look after them. That's the bottom line here. Honesty's the biggest thing and trust. My whole fuckin' everything I do depends on trust. Anybody works for me gets in trouble, I couldn't fuckin' imagine how much trouble I'd be in if someone got me in trouble I would lose everything I got, and that's a loss"

D32 Al: "You and Sebastian are in a little bit of trouble." "In fact you and him are so close to going to jail right now it's fuckin' unreal, and I know that because of different things I know and I've read..."

D35 Al: "Yeah well I'm a little, he told me some stuff and I'm curious about a lot of things but I'm curious about, the biggest thing is trust." "Because as I explained to Sebastian yesterday, trust, like, I want to be sure he can trust you and want to be one thousand percent sure that I can trust you."

D36 Al: "My concern here, can you be trusted. You see what I'm sayin'." "And what I'm thinkin' now is... (ellipses in original) Sebastian'd be in more fuckin' shit than you for, see why, you know why." "...you watched." "You didn't take part." "You see what I'm gettin' at." "That's why I gotta be sure you are solid." "Why didn't you swing a bat?"

D46 Al emphasizes to Rafay the need for "trust", which means that he had
better not "dare" keep any information about the organization, and explains
that the reason Rafay is there (presumably as opposed to being killed) is that
he is knowledgeable about computers and could therefore be an asset.

D47-48 Al : "That's why I told Sebastian I wanted to talk to you 'cause, my concern is that you can do him damage, but also he says that you're a man that knows how to run a computer." "It's the third guy we got to worry about. Sebastian guarantees me he's solid, what do you think?" "That's the only guy we gotta worry about so you got to stay solid. I don't want him knowing about my business yet. But I'll be talk to Jimmy whenever I get time because I don't need nobody fuckin' saying hey, Mr. Police, here's what I can
tell you. And here's something else I can tell you."

D48 Burns and Rafay try to persuade Al that Miyoshi is trustworthy.

D49 Rafay says, of "trust," "for me it was a big thing because I, we didn't know that we could trust you for example..." This does not demonstrate that Rafay and Burns now trust Al (in the last meeting from which Burns had returned to Vancouver Al had said, "I don't care whether you trust me or not,") so much as it reveals that Rafay had considerable knowledge of Al and apparently had conversations with Burns about their feelings about Al.

D51 Al: "Okay trust is the biggest thing here, man." "Trust is the biggest thing." Rafay tries to persuade Al that he would never inform on him. Al then asks him how, he feels about the crime and motive.

D52 Burns attempts to discuss the fact that some of the evidence must be being misrepresented by the police as being incriminating.Back to key


Transcript "E"
July 26 1995, Landis Hotel, Vancouver

E2 Al (to Miyoshi): " . . ..the biggest thing is I gotta be sure I can trust you because uh, there's a lot of things on my mind that... (ellipses in original) trust is everything, if you haven't got fuckin' trust we're gonna be...(ellipses in original) never do business together, see what I mean?" "You gotta understand. I got a few concerns..."
(Al asks Burns if Burns has informs Miyoshi of their sabotage plan, to which Burns responds in the negative. The wiretap evidence from the Phillip Ave. house should show that this is false. Al then mentions it to Miyoshi.) "...once I do that, that's when the total trust's gonna have to come into play and I want to be sure you can be trusted."

E3 Al: II . ..the biggest thing is trust, and I gotta know I can trust you. What I like about you so far is that uh, when they were going down to the States you didn't fuckin' rat about."
(Miyoshi makes some exculpatory remarks, and when Al indicates his anger at this Burns apologizes for Miyoshi.)
Al: Yeah I understand he's being clever, but this isn't the time to be clever, I gotta be sure I can trust him." (Al then asks for specific information about Miyoshi's supposed knowledge of the crime.)

E4 Al: "Let's be honest." (Proceeds to ask questions requiring incriminating answers) "...I'll tell you the reason I'm asking is I gotta be sure you can be trusted." "See what I'm saying? I mean not hiding nothing from me right now because it's not gonna anybody any good. If I can't trust you I can't trust anybody 'cause you're involved with me right now and, when Sebastian explains to you what I'm gonna be doing for him and Atif, then you'll see how you're gonna, I'm gonna be involved. And I gotta be sure I can trust all
three of you."

E6 Burns to Miyoshi, while Al listens: "the question in his head is why, why you didn't you guys do as much. . . . And basically urn, for him it is to like it's to your credit for you to explain that to him okay because of the reason why he would want to know that you knew about it in advance okay, is because urn, like I know that I can trust you with my like you know what I mean, but he doesn't know that, alright. Okay and so if you explain yes I knew about it in advance uh, I didn't say shit to anybody okay it just shows that basically you know you didn't fuck me up. Because I've told him... I never have to worry about you like screwing me around, ever..."

E6-7 Burns (continuing): "...he can't necessarily sort of empathize with that so simple things like the fact that you knew about it in advance and didn't you know go tell the cops, this is, this thing's gonna happen you know what I mean .

E7 Burns (continuing from above): "That's like basically is evidence of your trustworthiness..." "So basically there's not much choice but to like forget about that kind of thing (i.e. concerns about making false inculpatory remarks because) because.... there's really very little we can do at this point, so."

E7 Al: "That's all, I just want to be sure you can be trusted, see. I'... What I want to know is the trust between you three..."

E8 (Al asks how "tight" things are between Miyoshi and his friends) Miyoshi: "How tight should I explain things...(ellipses in original)"
Al: "I don't know, what, what did you know about this before they went down to do it?" (Miyoshi gives evasive answers.)
Al: "See for some reason you seemed a little hesitant about talking about this. Now that's what I can't figure out because it makes me think maybe you're hiding something from me and maybe from Sebastian."

E9 Al repeatedly asks Miyoshi how long in advance he knew that the crime would occur. Miyoshi evades the question, and eventually asks about the sabotage plan.
Al: "everything's being looked after here, it'll be looked after within
uh, next three or four weeks. If I feel comfortable with everything. That's why I want to talk to you (Miyoshi), make sure I feel comfortable with everything." He then asks Miyoshi again, "So how long did you about this before it happened?"

E10 Al (to Miyoshi, about the purpose for his questions): "...I just want to be sure you're trustworthy"

E12 Al (again to Miyoshi, about the purpose of his questions): "Totally for trust." "Totally." "It's all trust. I'm trying to establish in my mind if I can trust you.

E13 Al: "...I just want to know how fuckin' much you know in advance and uh, how much of a role you played in it to uh, so how much you got to lose if he gets popped, you know what I mean?" "Okay see, but you knew about it ahead of time? That's fuckin' good, that's solid."

E13 Burns remarks that Al did not specify that the hair replacements should include the hair roots. Burns then states his concern that the police would fabricate more evidence if the first evidence was sabotaged.

E14 Burns attempts to discuss the possibility that the police may fabricate evidence, mentioning that the police have a hairbrush of his which would contain a great deal of his hair, thus enabling such fabrication. He later expresses his concern that the forensic evidence being sabotaged was not legitimate in the first place.

E13-14 Burns states that he believes the Bellevue Police have a hairbrush of his which has an abundant supply of his hair, and reiterates his concern that the police might plant more evidence if the existing evidence is sabotaged.

E14 Burns states several times that he believes the police would fabricate further forensic evidence and is not persuaded by Al's objections that such evidence would never stand up in court. Burns states that it is his belief that it would have been fabrication that would have resulted in the original incriminating evidence. After Al's objections, Burns finally says, "Okay, well I just hope they don't...(ellipses in original)" but is cut off by Al.

NOTE: The house wire tap would have intercepted conversations about the boys' concerns that the plan was unsound.