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Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay

Confession coercion strategy in the Rafay Burns case: This provides a detailed analysis of the RCMP sting and is the key to the entries on these pages

Chronological List of Significant Entries page one

Transcript "A"
May 6 1995, Four Seasons Hotel, Vancouver

A8 Gary refers to his ability to easily procure a forged or false driver's licence, apparently in any province, as while operating in BC he can get licences for Quebec.

A10 ...and forged or false Medicare cards

A11 Both officers refer to organized criminal activity in Canada (specifically Quebec, it would seem in this instance) and the U.S.A.

A11-12 Woody hesitates to disclose information about crime in Burns's company, and indicates his concern about this. Gary assures him for the second an third time that he needn't worry about making disclosures in front of Burns.

Al2 Woody (Scott Doran) produces two handguns and indicates that they were recently used in a homicide.

Al5 Burns states that he was going to meet with a man who was going to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in a film that Burns wishes to make with his friend. (The evidence from the Phillip Ave. residence wiretap would show that Burns had never met and was not going to meet such a man, thus it is reasonable to infer that this remark is made only to give a seemingly legitimate reason for Burns to avoid any obligation to commit crimes for Al and Gary).

A17 Burns claims that he has investors and that he always had investors for his film, and that he will begin filming in July or August.

A18 - 21 Burns refers to a film script written by himself and his friend (The wiretap from Phillip Ave. would show that this is a lie on Burns's part - there is no script at this time)

A21 Gary presses Burns to elaborate on the content of the film script, to which Burns responds by observing that no mention has been made of the reason why Burns has been brought to the hotel room. He states that he has "no idea" what is expected of him, but indicates that he is not interested in committing crimes, because of, among other things, his lack of time.

Burns : " I can tell you that to be honest... I'm not suitably interested I guess in, in, [working for Al, committing crimes] cause like, you're you're doin' too much fucking around. . reason for, for sort of doing it (driving the stolen car and maintaining the relationship) is, is more because I, I guess I worry uh like being tough with you guys...."

A21 - 22 Burns continues to explain that he can't "get, caught" for any crimes because he is under investigation for a serious offense, and his status with respect to this investigation would be aggravated by another criminal allegation or conviction.

A22 Burns explains he is under investigation, but has no reason to worry about this except that it makes him wish to avoid of criminal activity: " I'm not worried... I have no reason to worry, but I guess like having, having something pop up on a criminal record now would, it would just kinda fuck me up... I have a problem with a criminal record." Burns is at great pains to assure Gary that he doesn't despise Gary's line of work, he simply doesn't want to participate: "I was so anxious last time about that thing with the car and I wanted everything covered... it's not like I'm worried about auto theft (the context would indicate that to "worry about auto theft" in this sense would be to worry about the criminality of it from a moral perspective, as the remark seems to distinguish between this and the prospect of getting caught, which he had, in prior remarks, proffered as the object of his concern) or whatever. I mean like, I'm a little worried about that but uh, you know the girl, well first hand and, and who knows what will come of it, I mean (INDECIPHERABLE) but... the problem is it'll affect this other thing right. So that, that's why I'm sort of anxious...." - the indecipherable portion should be deciphered.

A23 Burns states that he does not want to commit crimes, explaining that this is particularly the case now that he's been fingerprinted.

A23 Burns, having stated several times that he's disinterested in crime suggests that perhaps if necessary he could do "simple things" for Gary and Al.

A24 This page needs retranscription but includes Burns remarking "you established the tone." Burns seems to be remarking on Gary's control of the conversation, and by extension, the nature of their relationship, which is the subject of their conversation.

A25 Gary: "...I mean you weren't being honest with me then and, and I can understand why and I, you know you weren't being as honest as you are now and uh I'm not gonna put ugh you know, in one end you gotta put your foot forward, you gotta take the chance before I take the chance. But you've uh taken a bit of the step to show some trust...." Burns has mentioned at this point that he's being investigated for "a fairly serious offence." Gary seems to be implying that Burns is guilty, and that his mentioning the investigation is the first step towards his confessing and thereby establishing trust and honesty.

A26 Gary says that when he proposed the auto theft to Burns " looked like you were gonna shit when Al said this is what we're doin'...." everything I care about. . . . I'm gonna fuckin' do .-

A26 " . . ..they can fuck up your wife and shit like that." (Gary explains that they kill wives and families of objectionable colleagues, and that in the scenario described it insured that the victim of the crime would not attempt to press charges or give evidence. Let us assume, for the purpose of assessing coercive threats that having one's family or loved ones killed is equivalent to having one's self killed.)

A27-28 Gary explains that his organization kills potential informants, and describes an occasion wherein he was charged with murder and was denied bail, but was ultimately freed because the witness who had agreed to give (presumably eyewitness) testimony against him was killed before the trial, in a murder contract arranged by Al. (See insert page containing portions of conversation occurring during the change of tape sides not transcribed by the RCMP (omission on A27).

A29 Gary: "Like there's uh, it's there, uh you know I don't know, I don't know what this, uh, the end of this movie is or, I don't know what uh, what uh, this thing that you, you say you've done or whatever but, uh you know, I, I don't know." (Burns, prior to this remark, has not given any indication whatsoever that he is guilty of any crime.)

A29 Burns explains, after Gary tells him that he won't go to jail for the car theft, that the possibility of being charged is sufficient to deter him from committing crimes even if there is no chance of his being convicted, as even an allegation would aggravate his circumstance.

A30 Burns has stated several times that he's disinterested in committing crimes for Gary and Al and has used a variety of excuses favouring the explanation that he is prevented from committing crime by the investigation of him. At the beginning of this page Burns continues to explain that there is a great deal of press coverage of this investigation and that for this reason he cannot commit crimes because even an allegation about a minor crime would be reported widely in the press. He remarks that, despite innocence, the police and the news media "assume that you're guilty no matter what's right"

Gary does not acknowledge Burns's expression of disinterest and instead describes him as talking in circles. Burns appears to indicate his disinterest in crime by suggesting that he would not feel comfortable with Al and Gary, and to attempt to close the conversation: "Well anyhow, like I, I appreciate everything you're saying and I wouldn't do, but, but I feel a lot better I guess with my friends and I, you know I just feel you know, trustworthy you know like . . . (ellipses in original)". Gary states, "I uh, but I sense something untrustworthy here uh you know." Burns responds, "Well I explained further then I " whereupon he is interrupted by Gary who says, "Well, it's not a matter of explainin' further, it's a matter of uh, it's a matter of fuckin' uh trust." He later says, "but the fact that you're, that, you're reluctant and I can see why you're reluctant. But that has me wonderin', thinkin' that maybe I should. be reluctant too."

It is unclear precisely in what sense Gary would be "reluctant," but since Burns has already stated that he does not wish to commit crimes for Al and Gary it would seem to be a sinister euphemism. (Gary has, by this point, already confessed himself to having committed murder.) However the reference to Burns's reluctance is much clearer: it is Burns's failure to make inculpatory statements in order to demonstrate his trust in Gary.

A31 The remark above prompts Burns to state, "... I'll totally level with you, okay. . .." whereupon he explains in some detail that he and his friend have been falsely accused of murdering his friend's parents and sister. He explains how he has been harassed by the police for almost a year.

A36 Burns, continuing to explain the false accusations, refers to the insinuation in the news media that the movie screening which constitutes part of the boys' alibi was actually their opportunity to commit the crime.

A43 Gary: "when I saw you on that fuckin' uh, on who's uh car? That's uh, I think ~you were gonna fuckin' shit. I thought holy fuck, big mistake here." Note the use of the present tense "think."

A44 The RCMP transcript contains an account of Gary saying, "What do ya think we're gonna do?" to Burns. This is a mistranscription. The actual remark is, "What do you think we do," in response to which Burns states that he believes Al and Gary are involved in auto thefts, insurance fraud, narcotics, homicide for hire, trafficking.

A45 Gary: "It seems to me that boostin' a car seemed to be uh, at the very outer most extremities of somethin' that you'd be doing."

A46 Burns: " you know I was sort of getting at earlier is that... I'm a bit busy... this movie thing i- is... the sort of thing that . . . you gotta do now and so like (INDECIPHERABLE) uh I'm gonna (INDECIPHERABLE) way..."

Burns says he will keep in touch and meet Al and Gary in ten years. Burns states that when he finally would meet with them in ten years, he would not be interested in committing crimes, but giving them money to invest in their "transit circles".

A47 Gary states that it is essential that Burns be trustworthy regardless of what their relationship is - even if he is not committing crimes.

A47 - 48 Burns remarks that he can trust his remaining friends because those with whom he did not have a secure relationship were inclined to believe the false allegations against him.

A47-49 Burns attempts to obviate his obligation to commit crimes and to prove his trustworthiness by suggesting that in the future he would like to give money to Al and Gary so that they could invest it in their criminal enterprise. Gary eliminates this escape by saying that the same trust must exist regardless. Gary remarks that many friends are not trustworthy, to which Burns says, "Fortunately I've had enough things to uh eliminate anyone I don't trust man." Gary eliminates this escape also by asserting that this cannot be known to be true unless he and his friends are together guilty of a crime.

A49 Gary emphasizes the importance of trust, and insists to Burns that ".the same fuckin' level of trust has to be there at both ends... and that's what it comes down to is, it's, it's too far to, too farm to fall and, and to me the, the ultimate...."

Again, this remark contains threatening ambiguity, and would seem to indicate that he feels that he is at risk to take a fall because of Burns, and that this situation is unacceptable.

A50 Burns after hearing Gary's lecture on the need to earn trust, says of crime: "I'm still pretty ignorant". Gary asks Burns what crimes he's capable of committing and what he's willing to do. Burns response is mistranscribed. The correct transcription is, " . ..I'm not capable of like, you know, kicking guys' asses or whatever," to which Gary responds, "Yeah, obviously..." After some further untranscribed remarks, Burns says, "And as far as like, what I'm capable of doing, I mean like... like I said like how competent I am like... I mean really"

A51 Burns, having just remarked that he is "pretty ignorant" about crime, remarks that if he had to make a decision without knowing the pay he would decline because he is very busy and needs to work on the film. He suggests that perhaps he could do something for them if it is "easy to do". Gary remarks that everything is easy. Burns indicates that his ignorance of crime precludes him from having that opinion. Burns later attempts to suggest money laundering as something for Gary to tell him about. Gary does not give a clear explanation, but instead insists that Burns clearly assert, that he wishes to commit crimes.

A52 Gary asks Burns how his conscience would "handle" criminal acts (i.e.: what is Burns's moral perspective on crime). Burns (presumably appealing to the highest standard of criminal tolerance and acceptance) states that he would not be bothered by the prospect of a man's family being murdered as retaliation for his violation of criminal standards of conduct. He explains that he would not capable of such an act for "technical reasons," as he lacks the skill or the appropriate inclinations required.

A52-53 Burns states that crime and murder in general would not bother his conscience but that he would not wish to participate in any crime or any murder because of his incapacity. Continuing, Burns explains that for these reasons he would not want "to bother," and reiterates that he is quite busy.

Gary asks Burns how he knows that he would not be bothered. Gary objects, and asks Burns how he knows that he would not be bothered. Burns admits that he doesn't know, suggesting that he can only suspect that it wouldn't bother him, and then says "but it's sort of moot point because I guess what I'm also saying is that, there'd be two many sort of reasons why I, I wouldn't necessarily want to do that."

A54 Burns remarks that he does not have "enough credentials" to speak authoritatively about crime, and remarks that he doesn't know what he is supposed to say.

A54-55 Burns tries to show that he's trustworthy by saying that he's been interrogated by detectives. When Gary says that this doesn't prove anything if one is innocent of the crime about which one is being interrogated, Burns agrees he just doesn't have "credentials" to speak authoritatively about crime, and then says, " then... we're at odds and... the answer is that there's nothing I can do, because I'm not qualified to say, umm, what I can or cannot do...." He then remarks that he doesn't know what he's supposed to say.

A55 Burns remarks that he doesn't see any way to "work around that". Gary expresses surprise that Burns has come to this conclusion, to which Burns responds that Gary would seem to have reached that conclusion himself, thus making pointless Gary's pursuit of the issue. (At this point, officer Gary Shinkaruk gives the secret code signal to indicate his wish that officer Al Haslett enter the room in his criminal persona.)

A57 In response to a diatribe by Gary about how Burns needs to work his way up "a slower road," Burns replies I'... I guess, the thing is, I, almost not that motivated right now, because like as I said, .right, I just got things to do...." and says that his greater concern is "keeping in touch". When Gary asks how long he'll be busy - "A week, a month, a year?" Burns says, "Like, a year or better." "A year or something like that. . there's no telling what, what things could come up that..." ( recall that Burns before had suggested a duration of ten years)

A65 Burns: "I was anxious, 'cause I didn't, I didn't really know everything that was going on...." (regarding the auto theft.)

A66 Burns provides an exculpatory explanation of the allegations to Al.

A67 When asked about his role in the homicide, Burns says he's accused of being a murderer and attributes this to his having stayed at the house for a few days and the absence of any other suspects.

A67 Al (about Burns's friends): "How solid are these guys? like how, how, how much are you gonna be hung out to dry?" "How much are your friends gonna hang you out to dry?"

A68 Al (continuing): "Solid people?" Burns: "Absolutely." Al: "So, if they knew what you were into here?" (Burns assures Al that they would not betray anyone to the police.)

A69 Al: "What's this triple homicide about? I think I know about it anyway, but you tell me."

Burns: "You probably heard about it, or read about it."

Al: "Yeah."

A69 Al asks Burns to tell him about the crime and explains that he wants to know about it because "I just wanta be sure I'm talking to someone who's fuckin' trustworthy." Al indicates his assumption that Burns is guilty.

A69 Al asks Burns about the Bellevue homicides, his sole reason being to ensure Burns's trustworthiness: "I just wanta be sure I'm talkin' to someone who's fuckin' trustworthy." Al expresses concern that Burns might have been followed to the meeting.

A69-70 Al seems to say that he needs someone who can take care of business (i.e. commit murders) and Burns says he's not capable of that.

A69-70 In response to Al's suggestion that he needs someone who can take care of business, and his implication that Burns is guilty, Burns responds : "...well I'm not suggesting to YOU that (INDECIPHERABLE) umm, (INDECIPHERABLE) uhhh, cause auh, because . . . (ellipses in original)" "No such thing, but auh". Burns seems to be denying having committed murder or being capable of it.

Al: "Well with your fuckin' brains, obviously you could plan something like that." This remark demonstrates that murder is commonplace in Al's operation and his interest in improving their murder strategies.

Burns: "Well yeah, I auh, I don't really have, the kind of money to do those kinds of things (INDECIPHERABLE)"

Al: "What's that?"

Burns: "Huh, that, well that's all the kind of story that I'd rather purchase than undertake myself but...." Burns proceeds to explain that he is going to be very busy with filming and doesn't have time to work for Al.

A70 Burns tries yet again to extricate himself from Al and Gary: " concerns with you is that I don't necessary have the time you need to do lots of work right now... .'s like I sort of have things on my plate. . I say, I'm totally busy..."

A71-73 Burns explains why he is being falsely accused.

A73 Al finally acknowledges Burns's assertions of innocence, and remarks "And you're being fuckin' sewered."

A74 Al refuses to accept and ignores these statements of disinterest and continues to act as though Burns wants to work for him, insisting on the necessity of trust, etc. prompting Burns to suggest that in addition to his filled schedule and lack of time, the money he would receive for working for Al would be inconsequential. Al is quite annoyed and tries to convince Burns that the financial rewards are enormous.

A74 "The thing is Sebastian, nothing's coming down on us, me, because you're either gonna fuckin' work for me, and fuckin' get involved making money and it'll be total trust, where you don't fuck me, and I don't fuck you." (Offers no alternative.)

A75 Al states that he would like Burns to become a cocaine dealer, stating that Burns had to prove his trustworthiness first.

Burns: "Yeah, well (INDECIPHERABLE) I guess auh, cause I guess what I'm thinking is like auh, I'm thinking like the film and you know . . . (ellipses in original)"

Al: "When I first met you, you said you need money to make a film, you wanta make money to make a film?"

Burns: "Sure. I auh... (ellipses in original)"

Al: "Bottom line, okay?"

Burns: "Okay."

Al: "I'm not gonna walk up and hand you two hundred fuckin' thousand dollars, I' a fool, you know that for a fact."

Burns: "Yeah, well I wasn't suggesting you do that."

This excerpt seems to confirm that both Gary and Al recall Burns saying originally that he needed money to make a film and in this specific excerpt Burns does not seem to contradict this, and as such it would seem that his claim that he now has financing for his film was a ploy to explain his disinterest.

A76 Al says that Burns could become a cocaine dealer but says that Burns has to prove that he can handle it.

Burns: "Well, (INDECIPHERABLE) well a lot of problems (INDECIPHERABLE) wanta do on the Northshore cause I, I'm very well known, as auh, a, a, (INDECIPHERABLE) guy." Al explains that Burns could sell drugs as he could get others to "handle the product."

Burns:"Well, auh, as I say, I'm (INDECIPHERABLE) out there, in the next couple months, and I kinda . . (ellipses in original) and auh, you gonna

(INDECIPHERABLE) there's, there's (INDECIPHERABLE) and auh."

Al: "Is there someone to make this film already?"

Burns now says that he doesn't need money as he already has $200,000 and will be meeting a man who will double the budget. (Evidence from the house wiretap would likely reveal that the last assertion is a fabrication.) He says in any case his budget will be adequate, and concludes, "....that's what I'm gonna do..." Burns suggests that the perception described in above in A75 and elsewhere is a misunderstanding. (It is likely in cross-examination that both officers would express confidence that Burns had in fact stated that he was seeking financing, thus providing further evidence that Burns's assertion on this page is in fact a ploy.)

A77 Al states that he moves $300,000 every 36 hours, and that his biggest problem is that "banks aren't open fuckin' long enough." Burns insists again "...I want to do this movie, . ..I will be very busy."

A77 Al: "And from what everything I've read about you, and I've read about you. I've read about you lots in the last fuckin' week. Cause I made a point of finding out about you. You know something, that's why you're here tonight, cause I've read about you, I've read about you."

A78 Burns states that at the time of the auto theft he believed that Al and Gary had done research on him.

A79 Al, bizarrely, says that he's not offering Burns a contract yet, and Burns sums up neatly: "Well what I'm saying is that I don't have much time to make (ellipses in original) and you're saying well that's fine, cause I haven't give you the contract yet so." (This, incidentally, is when Officer Haslett, realizing Burns is "getting away" raises the fear that Burns is going to be an informer).

A79-80 Burns says that he is too busy to commit crimes and that he would seem to be unqualified according to Al's standard, to which Al says that Burns must show Al that he is capable. Burns makes a last objection that is undeciphered by the RCMP, to which Al says, "What happens when these fuckin' auh bozos from down auh in Bellevue, come fuckin' up here and grab you?" "What happens then?" "Whose the first person you're gonna give up?" "Well you're looking at him, that's why I want to be fuckin' sure..." Burns denies that he would ever turn Al in, to which Al says, "Not today you don't, but in a three months you might." When Burns is reluctant to answer questions, Al. no longer offers explanations for his curiosity, instead ordering "Tell me about it!"

A80 Burns explains that he and his friends came back home to find the family dead. Al asks who was supposed to be with Burns at the time. Burns's response is transcribed as "INDECIPHERABLE" but the tape would reveal that Burns declined to give any name, saying, "...a guy," or something to similar effect.

A81 In response to Al's question "Who's financing your movie?", Burns replies cryptically "Just auh, a couple guys." Al finally acknowledges what Burns has been saying all along " . ..maybe you don't need me, maybe you don't fuckin' want money, that's fine too." Burns, with evident relief, confirms this: "...actually that sort, sort of what I've been getting at... I'm not that motivated... I got a lot of shit to do, and then you know, the time, but... it's almost like auh, I, I feel almost obligated in a way to have, you know do some work with you..."

A82 In an almost completely indecipherable paragraph in the middle of the page Burns seems to indicate his disinterest in committing crimes because of his desire to continue work on his film.

A83 In a largely untranscribed paragraph, Burns says that to kill the detectives on the case "would be nuts," and later mutters something about a hypothetical point when he needs to blow up a building, "...not that I'd be able to." He later modifies this scenario to one where some sort of "clerical" sabotage occurs.

A84 Al: "I just want to fuckin' see if you're competent, cause Gary told me, you had some concerns (about the auto theft and last meeting) and I just want to be sure auh, you concerns are gonna cause fuckin' problems" "I did a little fuckin' checking, some research, whatever, found out lots about you. And uh, I don't know, I found out a lot."

A84 Al: "But, I you want, we can do some checks in the states for you, for fuck all. You don't have to do anything."

A85 When Burns says agreeably that if they are going to do checks he wouldn't mind knowing "what's going on," Gary sternly responds "We're gonna do them anyway!" indicating again what a concern this is to Al and Gary and their organization, regardless of how Burns feels about it. Then, when Burns laughingly mentions that he doesn't have Gary's pager number but he does have his license plate number, the conversation turns deadly. Al is enraged and Gary is shocked, both behaving as though Burns might be terminated then and there. Both display every indication of believing Burns to be an informer who should be killed. They both conclude that he must have done that to turn them in.

A85 Al: (about Gary's licence plate number) "Who does know? You got that written down?"

A85 Burns explains that he took Gary's license plate number "Because that was back when I was really scared."

A85-87 Al and Gary learn that Burns took Gary's license plate number and conclude that he must have done that in order to turn them in, in the event that he was arrested.

A86 Burns states that he believes Al has done checks with his "connections" and with the RCMP.

A86 Burns: "...he found out who I was, and he went through all his connections, and just checked me out right?" "See if I was gonna turn you in, then I, assume that it's done, in fact this guy goes, and he's reading about me alright, and he checks with the RCMP and" " He checked with whoever, and he, he does his research and he reads about me, alright." Burns states that he feels he could not make a secret deal with the police because Al would immediately be informed.

A87-88 Burns states that he believed that the car theft was something much more dangerous than a car theft. He considered the idea that there might be corpses in the trunk of the car and that he was being "set up." Gary remarks that "it took a lot of guts right now to fuckin' tell me that, not knowing that if you say that there's always that potential, shit hits the fan knowing what I've done in the past...." Gary refers to Burns knowing that Gary has murdered people in the past and it is clear that the potential to which he refers is that Gary might have responded to Burns's disclosure by murdering Burns.

A88 Burns: "Obviously he's gonna have enough in his books to figure how to get back at me, right. . ..if I fuckin' him up in some way, obviously he's gonna, you know, screw me up in the biggest way"

A89 The passage is largely indecipherable but Al seems to indicate that only if Burns is properly trusted and making money for Al "I will look after you one thousand percent."

A89-90 Al: "or taking care of any fuckin' buddies that will ever go to fuckin' court...." (Al explains he doesn't "set people up" to go to jail - quite the contrary - he'll kill people to keep he and his colleagues from going to jail) "There's two things I ain't gonna fuckin' do in my life, is go to jail or lose money. And you always remember that."

A91 After Burns's numerous explanations of his disinterest in crime Al asserts: "... Well let me tell you something Sebastian, We'll scout that fuckin' Northshore," meaning that Burns will become a drug dealer.

A91 Gary makes a largely indeciphered remark about not getting the whole story.

A91 Burns states that he noticed that the stolen car was one obviously used by a parent with children.

A93 Al: "I'm not convinced you can fuckin handle all this shit."

Burns: "Yeah, well, huu, I guess not."

A7/53 Al: "We'll talk again. And I'll tell ya we're leaning on you again."

A8/53 Al: "You obviously left somethin' down there that's fuckin' ah, people are asking for."

Burns: "Well, not obviously."

Al: "They want your fuckin' ass for some reason." "Exactly some potential thing somethin' that helps and I'll find out"

A8/53 Burns explains that the police are investigating him despite the lack of evidence because of the enormous pressure put upon them by the community.

A9/53 Gary: "obviously. ah whatever's ah, whatever you saw, saw whatever you didn't see here. You didn't see here and ah, the reason I worry scares us and ah they're gonna be up to . . . (ellipses in original) business is business don't fuck . . . (ellipses in original) business"

A11/53 Al: "Gary's fuckin', a fuckin' solid man, cost me fuckin' eighty grand to get that fuckin' guy out of fuckin' jail for different reasons. Why I got him out that's fine. He was in a fuckin' ja-, I'm, that's fine he was worth (ellipses in original) fuckin' not a penny. Not a fuckin' day not a dime." (Al is referring to the murder of the informant Gary describes in A27). Al later states: "Sebastian, I know what you didn't tell me. I don't give a fuck! I don't gave a fuck! That's why it's a not a fuckin' act! I don't give a fuck what you know!..."

A11/53 Al says that Gary does not know what Al found out about Burns this week. He describes Gary as being a little shocked by the discovery of the allegations.

A13/53 Al: "You didn't do what you did for sixty fuckin' grand on a fuckin' house. Not a fuckin' chance!"

A13/53 Al: "Tell me. No don't fuckin' nod your head it's ah, situation where ah, we're gonna look after each other."

A16/53 Al : " Murder in this fuckin' city every day. Gary I trust that cunt with a fuckin' ah-, my life" Al then indicates that he wants Burns as a personal crime servant who will perform services for Al exclusively, and says after "I heard a lot about you."

A17/53 Al: "But I'm not sure that if you can fuckin' trusted." Burns attempts to reply but then Al says : ". . . I don't believe you guys offed that family for sixty fuckin' thousand dollars, on a fuckin' house" thereby asserting his presumption of Burns's guilt, and indicating that the possibility for trustworthiness lies in being guilty of the alleged crime.

Burns responds "Well it's like I don't understand I mean, I-I can tell you that I would never turn someone else in"

A18/53 Al : "Like I told you cost me eighty fuckin' grand to get him outta fuckin' jail, but I don't get two fuck's if it cost me two hundred fuckin' grand. What the fuck, he'll make me fuckin'-, in my lifetime, ten times that amount."

A18/53 Al: "You got problems in the States, I have no idea if I could ever fuckin' help you out down there. I know if you're (sic - should be "your") fuckin' fact I can make-, some people fuckin' try to find out 'cause I'm down there. . ..("Till I know what's going on down there I don't know-, you tell me what's going on down there, that's what I'm asking you." "You left something behind down there." "What went on down there, what went on down there? You tell me, I'll be able to fuckin' find out a lot more. Last thing I wanna do is go fishing around."

A19/53 Al asks about the crime scene to which Burns says, "Listen I, you know as much as I do, okay." and says that to his knowledge there is no evidence. He then says, "(Beginning of remark as trancscribed is incomprehensible - needs to be retranscribed)... if that's the case how the fuck should I know what they're gonna to fabricate. You know what I mean? They had months before they, before they finally asked for hair and blood samples and they just fuckin' making something up in all that time."

Al: "[What] [w]as the lead down there? You have to think. . .."

Burns: " . ..well like I said to you, I was in the house for five days, hang around the house for five days? Sleep in the bed, the hair's gonna be there in the room."

Al: "Everything I read, they have somethin' on you."

A20/53 Burns asserts that police's public claims that they have physical evidence are false.

A20-21/53 Al tries to convince Burns that the police have evidence against him. "They're saying, they have something there." "So why'd you do it? Be candid with me and tell me why you did it. And I can fuckin'-, sure like to find out. But the last thing I-, is go askin' questions blindly."

A21 Burns: "Listen, you know as much as I do, about-, . . . (ellipses in original) there's nothing I can say that can help you if you don't-."

Al: "No but I-I don't want to question blindly."

Burns: " if you're not happy don't ask around about it if you don't want me (is probably "to" rather than "me" on tape) but if you were saying you were going to anyhow so there. But I, there's nothing I can say that can help you ah-.. (elipses in original)". Burns then makes cynical remarks about the police's allegations about Burns's motive and the reasons why he has been falsely accused, and asserts that there is no evidence.

A21/53 Al : "Sebastian don't start fuckin' trying to think like I do. I've lived and died this way, you're (sic) motive is more than sixty thousand dollars on a house."

A21/53 Al: "You're [sic] motive is fuckin' more than sixty thousand fuckin' dollars on a house." "Well what is the motive? Not for sixty thousand dollars on a house." "Fuck! Say it, fuck I read, I know."

A22/53 Burns says, "Yeah, well Gary well you know I like to go . . . (ellipses in original) and whatever-" to which Al says, "-and that's great. But you could also help me and I could help you" Burns's remark, as transcribed, is incomprehensible, but the context would seem to indicate that Burns has expressed something contrary to interest in working with Al - the omitted portion should be transcribed.

A24/53 Al asks if Burns can trust his friend, the friend whose parents were murdered. Burns says he can.

A25/53 Large omission during change to tape 3 side B. Is probably actually present on original tape, as was the omission on page A27.

A27/53 Al : "Want me to tell you what I'm convinced?" "You did that murder." "And that's why you're solid." "I just know what I found out up here. I just told you, I know you did that fuckin' murder all of them."

A28/53 Al : " 'cause I can't figure out why you did that for sixty fuckin' grand?"

A29/53 Burns maintains to Al that one way or another financing for the film will come through and that the film will take a lot of time and that he's not that motivated to work. He then conciliatorily adds, " the same in time, urn, you know I'm ignorant about how much ah that would concern. It would take and ah, you know, and ah really you know . . . (ellipses in original)" Burns is remarking that his lack of experience in crime precludes him from knowing precisely how difficult crimes are to commit. Al rightly points out that Gary isn't working hard in an attempt to pressure to Burns to maintain involvement.

A29-30/53 Largely untranscribed portion seems to document Gary asking if Burns has discussed the crime inculpatorily and, to Gary's mind, honestly (thus trustworthily). Burns denies this, and makes insolent remarks about their presumption of his guilt, prompting Gary to instruct him to refrain from such remarks.

A30/53 Burns, having been told numerous times that Al "knows" he's guilty and that he is, for this reason only, trustable with compromising information (in non-arrest circumstances) says, "...if you think that. . . . You- you think that, you think that based on reports and outside sources. Sometime if you-, you go and ask around. And you know, ask them." Burns's tone would seem to be insolent or hostile, as Gary says, "Don't get your back up, man..." Gary later says, " I'm in the same situations at that time but, I don't know man. Well fuck we're all . . . (ellipses in original) he's fuckin' blindsided me once, twice, now you're doing it once whatever. I just, I just like dealing (ellipses in original) you know and ah, somehow I'llsay one thing, and you say another thing, but it ain't 52 cards that's been fuckin' played over here. I don't know, and probably you do" Gary implies that Burns is guilty and is being dishonest for not having confessed.

Al: "What kind of evidence is there down there against you?"

A31/53 Burns defends his lawyer, and maintains that he feels safe and knows where he stands, and that he is simply curious about what the detective are saying about the case. Al keeps asking what to find out.

A31/53 Al: "'cause if I wanna fuckin' find out I'll pay money to find out." "And so what? What are we find out, what kind of "

A31/53 Burns says that he believes he is safe in Canada, and that he does not know whether it would be safe to travel internationally but that this is not important to him as he has no intentions to travel internationally.

A32/53 Gary: "Can't your lawyer just phone down and say fuck if ah, my guy crosses the line are you gonna pick him up? They won't tell him-."

Burns: "We1-well basically they said they will and-"

Gary: "then I would say you're not safe."

A32/53 Burns suggests that if the police were to arrest him that they would assault him. He states that he feels the police's requests for DNA sample from he and Rafay were to portray Rafay and Burns as being uncooperative and not because they had any legitimate physical evidence.

A33/53 Burns, continuing from above states that the requests were also made to stall the probate lawyer's efforts to close the estate, as to allow this would be to reveal their lack of evidence.

A33-34/53 Al: (after Burns has finished remarks above): "What kinda evidence, what what's evidence from it. What kind of evidence did you leave?" "Yeah, you left fuckin' something down there that ah, is going to tie you to a fuckin' ah, murder. That's why they're after you, fuckin' think."

A34/53 Al: "-when, read you this fuckin' murder you left something behind, that they're after. That's why the fuck they're after you. Stop and think, that's what it's all about."

Burns: "...there's nothing to leave. Alright, from-" (cut off by Al)

Al: "Urn, is that's they way that's great 'cause that's what's happening, that's what they're thinking. That's how you got into your fuckin' . . . covers man. Somethin' was left. Stop and think."

Gary (after brief mutterings by Burns): " Sounds like you're saying that something fuckin' they left their house, saying there's something there?" Gary tells Burns that he should agree to have Al arrange to have the evidence sabotaged.

A34-35/53 Burns: "I-I mean, I-I don't have clue what, what, if anything that they'd be suggesting they tie me too (sic)". He then explains that the presence of his body matter at the crime scene is explained by his stay at the house. "I have no idea what they are suggesting..."

A35/53 Gary: " but I know, I've done a lotta time for guys who were fuckin' . . . (ellipses in original) just as clear fuckin' did it. And they're saying no they didn't did it. They (the police) ain't gonna fuckin' be sittin' there chasing down something, that ain't there. And you do what the fuck you want, if it's there, you get rid of it. That's, that's the pure and simple you should do and ah, otherwise ah-ah', I-I been that fuckin' route man and as long as I've been sitting there, they're (accused parties that claimed innocence) still doing time, I-, there's a fuckin' there's a trail, you fuckin' cover it up. Ah do what the fuck you want, she's your life.

Burns: "Well yeah okay, anyhow."

Gary: "Did you here what I said, don't give me this fuckin' anyhow..."

A36/53 After further browbeating from Gary on the subject, Burns seems to say that he doesn't believe there would be any significant evidence against him, but accedes that he would be happy to eliminate such evidence were it to exist.

A36-37/53 Al refers to articles that he's read.

A37/53 Al : "How was it planned?" "Well you're hear (sic) to fuckin' day because of what I read in . . . (ellipses in original) I told you that day. How'd you plan all of this?"

A38/53 Gary: "You were thinking of you-, have no interest in doin' the other thing? Obviously not. No? Do it later?" This page needs to be retranscribed as it is largely incomprehensible. The topic changes suddenly and in this transcription incomprehensibly in the middle of the page.

A38/53 This page is badly transcribed but Burns, after having indicated disinterest in committing crimes seems to be saying that regardless of his lack of interest Al and Gary had a crime planned for him on this and every other occasion of their meetings. The word "furious" is transcribed as being Burns's description of his reaction to this.

A49-50/53 Al offers a car to Burns, but Burns demurs: " problem quite honestly is that, urn like I said I don't know lf I'm gonna have time to do what, you know, you might think is appropriate for me to do...." "...I would never want to hit you up for a favour", because Burns does not want to have to do criminal work for Al.

A54/53 (labelled START OF TAPE 4, SIDE A) Al: "You committed the fuckin' perfect crime, here haven't you? You're fuckin' auh, you're scared as hell." A - TAPE 4, SIDE A, FIRST PAGE (NOT NUMBERED): Al insists that Burns is guilty, and has committed the "perfect crime." He then remarks that Burns is scared "as hell" Burns responds: "...there's more to the world than you know, the perfect crime[.]"

NOTE: It is believed that somewhere in transcript "A" there is an untranscribed remark of Al's which is as follows: "I even paid a little money to find out about you."

Continued > > > transcripts B through E