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Interview with Michael C. Ruppert

Michael C. Ruppert

Mike Ruppert
Former LAPD Officer

Please introduce yourself.

Hi. I'm Mike Ruppert and I'm the publisher of From The Wilderness newsletter and ex-LAPD Narc and general troublemaker for corrupting and evil influence around the world.

Tell us about the Website.

The Website is www.copvcia.com, and what I want you to do is just think of Roe v. Wade but just make this Cop v. CIA - policeman against the CIA - get it?

When you created the newsletter what were you responding to and what were your intentions?

Well in March of ‘98, it was about four months after I confronted CIA Director John Deutch at Lock High School on world television and kind of shamed him and said - he had come to Los Angeles to talk about CIA - allegations about CIA dealing drugs and I stood up on CNN and ABC Nightline and I said, "I am a former LAPD narcotics detective. I worked South Central and I can tell you Director Deutch that the Agency has dealt drugs in this country for a long time." And the room exploded and what I saw at that time was there was a crying lack of knowledge in the body politic about how much evidence there really was about the criminal activities of the Central Intelligence Agency about specifically dealing drugs. I said wait a minute - I can pull out a little newsletter and say if you look at this document here's the proof for that. Because a lot of people were running around with the vague notion that maybe CIA was bad guys and they'd done some things wrong and they didn't know how much actual proof there was. So that's been the mission - is to present the real proof that's irrefutable about what goes on.

Gary Webb

Gary Webb's Dark Alliance reports - Cocaine pipeline financed rebels - Evidence points to CIA knowing of high-volume drug network

Let's talk about your experience on the beat and what you confronted as a citizen trying to do right in the streets - must be pretty wild as it is.

What is in a person who - I imagine - now maybe I'm naïve, but you imagine someone in the CIA as thinking about protecting the country or at least the intelligence community as something that's ordered around national security - what do you think it is that triggers them to want to reconcile drug shipments in the country in line with that pursuit?

Well they don't even have to reconcile it. That's what took so long to figure out but that's what we teach now with From The Wilderness - is that it wasn't just CIA dealing some drugs to fund covert operations. It is that drug money is an inherent part of the American economy. It has always been so, as it was with the British in the 1600s when they introduced opium into China to fund the triangular trade with the British East India Company.

Criminal Intelligence Agency I haven't been a policeman now for a long time. I graduated from the LA Police Academy class of 11/73, hit the streets in January of '74 in South Central Los Angeles. It was a vastly different world then - there was no cocaine and we had six-shooters and strait batons and nobody had a radio that you carried around with you. But the world has changed enormously. I specialized in narcotics quickly and heroin was the predominant drug on the street in my area - it was Mexican brown heroin in those days and what happened to me was that I met and fell in love with a woman who was a contract CIA agent and a career agent… Now I come from a CIA family and they had tried to recruit me, so this was not unexpected to me but I began to see that she was protecting drug shipments and that the Agency was actively involved in dealing drugs and this happened with her in Hawaii and Mexico and Texas and New Orleans and I kept saying I'm a narc - I'm not going to overlook drug shipments and that's what basically set me on the irreversible course of events that kind of determined the rest of my life, and that was 1977.

- phone rings -

So describe what you were talking about.

The point about the drug trade is not that the CIA dealt a few drugs during the Contra years to fund the covert operation that Congress didn't want it to engage in. The CIA has dealt drugs for all 50 years of its existence - 50 plus years - even before it was the CIA. And the point is that with 250 billion dollars a year in illegal drug money moved - laundered through the American economy - that money benefits Wall Street. That's the point of having the prohibitive drug trade, which the CIA effectively manages for the benefit of Wall Street.

During the Contra war or just before the Contra war, the annual cocaine consumption in this country was about 50 metric tons a year - let's say back in 1979. By 1985, it was 600 metric tons a year. We are still consuming 550 metric tons of cocaine a year in this country and that money that's generated from that is used - let's say Pablo Escobar or some drug dealer in Colombia calls General Motors and buys 1000 Suburbans - GM doesn't ask where it came from. Philip Morris is now being sued by 28 departments (the same thing as States) in Colombia for smuggling 2 billion dollars worth of Marlboro cigarettes into Colombia and getting paid for it with cocaine money! That money boosts Philip Morris' stock value on Wall Street. General Electric the same way - it's documented in the US Department of Justice. So the purpose of the Agency being involved in the drug trade has been to generate illegal cash - fluid liquid capital which gives those who can get their hands on it an unfair advantage in the marketplace.

So when you hear the term war on drugs -

Well it's not a war on drugs. It's a war on people. Consider this: Joseph McNamara, a former chief of San Jose from the Hoover Institute at Stanford University published some really telling figures. In 1972, when Richard Nixon started the war on drugs, the annual federal budget allocation was 110 million dollars a year for enforcement. In fiscal year 2000, 28 years later, the budget allocation was 17 billion dollars a year and yet in the year 2000, there are more drugs in this country, they are cheaper, and they are more potent than they were in 1972. That has to tell you that there's some other agenda going on here.

Going back to the idea of China and the opium war, it is described also as a war on the people of China to bring them to a state of passivity where they couldn't actually be a force - do you see in some ways the drugs that come in satisfying a racist goal - with the crack laws especially in black inner city populations?

There's a number of ways to look at that. For the British, the introduction of opium into China was a means to an end. China was a homogeneous culture. When the British arrived there, the British were these Caucasian heathens, and the Chinese didn't want anything to do with them. They didn't want to give up their tea, they didn't want to give up their silk and the British said we can't have this. They went to India and grew the opium poppy in East India in the foothills of the Himalayas and smuggled it to China. And what they did over the course of a hundred years was they converted China from a homogeneous culture that was unified, into a society of warlords fighting for turf to see who had which drug dealing regions.

If you look at what happened in South Central LA in the 1980s, the model is exactly the same - it didn't change. The issue with drugs is this - and when I talk about narcotics, I come from several different angles - it's not just that I am a former narcotics investigator with the LAPD. I am also a recovering alcoholic who has sponsored men in recovery for 17 years. I've served on the board of directors of the National Council on Alcoholism. Alcohol is a drug. I have written more than 35 articles in the US Journal of Drug and Alcohol Dependence on treatment and recovery - treatment and recovery of addiction. People are going to get addicted no matter what you do and a certain percentage of any population will always get addicted.

What the Agency has done - and I have written specifically on this and it's on my web site - through institutions like the Rand Corporation and UCLA's Neuro-Psychiatric Institute and a number of academic projects which the CIA has funded, is they have deliberately engaged in pharmacological research to find out which drugs are most addictive. For example, in 1978 - 79, long before the cocaine epidemic hit here in the United States, research scientists from UCLA's Neuro-Psychiatric Institute, some of whom, like Lewis Jolly West who are very closely tied to the Mk-Ultra program, were doing research in South America where South American natives were smoking bassuco, which has the same effect as crack cocaine. And the addiction was so strong that they were performing lobotomies and the people were still smoking the bassuco or the paste in Colombia and they knew that because NPI and the Rand Corporation brought that data back. So the CIA knew in 1980 exactly what the effects of crack was going to be when it hit the streets.

Who benefits most from an addicted inner city population?

It's not just who benefits most - it's how many people can benefit on how many different ends of the spectrum. We published a story in my newsletter From The Wilderness in May of 1998 that was written by Catherine Austin-Fitts, a former assistant secretary of housing. She produced a map in 1996 - August of 1996 - that's the same month that the Gary Webb story broke in the San Jose Mercury News. It was a map that showed the pattern of single family foreclosures - or single family mortgages - HUD back mortgages in South Central Los Angeles. Actually it was Los Angeles but when you looked at the map all of these HUD foreclosures, they were right in the heart of the area where the crack cocaine epidemic had occurred. And what was revealed by looking at the HUD data was that, during the 1980s, thousands of middle-class African American wage-earning families with mortgages lost their homes. Why? There was drive-by shootings, the whole neighborhood deteriorated, crack people moved in next door, your children got shot and went to jail and you had to move out, the house on which you owed $100, 000 just got appraised at $40, 000 because nobody wanted to buy it and you had to flee - you couldn't sell it so you walked on it, and what Catherine's research showed was that someone else came along and bought thousands of homes for 10-20 cents on the dollar in the years right after the crack cocaine epidemic.

So the economic model is the same one that's always been in play for the ruling elite. It's use the poor people's money to steal their own land. You get the poor people to buy the drugs - using their money you take that money to bring in more drugs which destroys their property value - and then you steal it back. And the same thing has happened not only in Los Angeles - it has happened in Washington Heights in New York. As a matter of fact it's been documented by a fabulous researcher - Professor Jon Metzger at the University of Michigan, who is one of my subscribers - he's a doctorate of urban planning. It was discussed in the Kerner Commission Report in 1967 after the Detroit riots where it became US government policy - that no more than 1/4 of the population of any major inner city should be minority - spatial de-concentration, they call it - which really sounds Nazi to me… spatial de-concentration - but it's in the Kerner Commission Report.

So the plan is literally kill, loot - let me make it real simple - it's kill the Indians, take the land. Kill the Indians. Take the land. Take the wealth. So it is something of a misnomer… or a misconception to believe that all of the cocaine or all of the crack cocaine was only used by African Americans. There's as much crack almost being used by whites as there was by African Americans - certainly in terms of total consumption - whites probably consumed more cocaine than African Americans but they consumed powder. And what we saw was a deliberate effort by the Agency or Agency-related organizations to make sure the large quantities of the cocaine and the high quality cocaine got into the inner cities like Los Angeles and it was protected.

And that's what I saw with the LAPD - I saw the hands-on working relationship, the interface between local police departments and the CIA. I was first recruited when I was a senior at UCLA, the Agency flew me to Washington and said, "Mike we want you to become a CIA case officer - you've already interned for LAPD for three years, you interned for the chief, your family was CIA, your mother was NSA, blablabla, and then we want you to go back to the LAPD and being an LAPD cop will just be your cover." Now the Agency has done that - we've documented it in New Orleans, in New York in police departments all across the country. And I've seen the interface where the CIA will deal very quietly with local agencies to protect their drug operations and that's one of the reasons they have to do it - it weeds out competition.

Now the people who go on from CIA training and become police officer covers, do they not ever - are they not inherently crooked? Is it for money or do they actually believe there's a benefit here?

Well we were talking earlier before about Lenny Horowitz and his great book, Emerging Viruses. He has a quote in the front of that book that's one of my favorite quotes of all time - it's from Alexander Solzhenitsyn. And Solzhenitsyn says that men, in order to do evil, must first believe that what they are doing is good - otherwise they can't do it. Now the Agency - not everybody in a local police department who connects with the CIA is a case officer. The Agency will use contractors. They'll approach guys who have military specialties and they'll hire them on the side. There are some, like LAPD chief Daryl Gates, who I believe was a case officer his whole life - and we can go there later if you want to… Others are just contract employees but they brainwash themselves and it's easy to believe - it's one of the worst human vices of all - if you're making all this money and you have power, then you're doing it for a good cause. So there's an aspect of delusion about it but it is one that becomes extremely vicious when you try to bring it out of denial.

The guy that goes and buys the house at the cheap rate, how is he really connected to the CIA who are bringing in from Nicaragua - some people would say that's a simplified version of a conspiracy theory - how would you respond to those people?

I'm not saying that the person who bought the - and this is all documentable, this is provable, this is not speculation, we can trace this money very quickly - it's very easy to do. That's one of the reasons we've been so dangerous at From the Wilderness - because this is not speculation. People don't have to know - did the guy who was operating the roundhouse that turned around the train that was rolling to Aushwitz know what was going on in the shower room? I'm not making that argument but it was all part of the system that produced the same net result. And what you find repeatedly - one of the things that we'll be seeing more of I think in From the Wilderness and certainly I've seen excellent research on this is that one of the biggest investors in HUD multi-family units and HUD mortgages is Harvard University. It is a huge corporation that has a long list of ties to organized crime. Well, you take major firms like Harvard or related investment firms that also turn out to be huge campaign contributors, and they find out that there's 200 houses on the market for 20 cents on the dollar they don't ask how it got that way, they just follow the money.

I just did an interview, I was at the Shadow Convention where I interviewed a number of very famous people: Jesse Jackson, John Conyers, Maxine Waters, Ariana Huffington, Scott Harshburger of Common Cause - a great many very important American people - and I talked to them about the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in July of 2000 confirming that there was evidence that CIA was ordering drug dealing by a Contra leader - Renaldo Pena - and it was funny because I got all these political answers but the one guy I talked to was a guy named Rex Nutting, who was the bureau chief of CBS Market Watch - he is the head guy for CBS for the stock market. And we're sitting back in the room - I'm waiting for Huffington to get free - and I'm talking to this guy and we're talking about the fact that Richard Grasso, the chairman of the New York Stock Exchange, last July went to Colombia and cold called on the FARQ guerrillas and asked them to invest their drug money in Wall Street. And Rex Nutting says, "Well of course, they always go where the money is - it's obvious."

The drug money is always going through Wall Street. Wall Street smells money and it doesn't care where the money comes from. They'll go for the drug money. And we jokingly laughed that the CIA in '47 when it was created with the National Security Act, it was written by a guy called Clark Clifford, who was a Wall Street banker and lawyer. He's the guy that brought us BCCI. The outlines for CIA - the design for the Agency - was given to Clark Clifford by John Foster and Allen Dulles - both law partners in the Wall Street law firm of Sullivan & Cromwell. In 1968-69 - '69 after Nixon came in - his chairman of SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) was William Casey - the same guy who was Ronald Reagan's Director of Central Intelligence. And the current vice president in charge of enforcement for the New York Stock Exchange, Dave Dougherty, is a retired CIA General Counsel. The CIA is Wall Street and vice versa. When you understand that, and money is the primary objective, everything else just falls into place.

Thank you so very much.

I saw light bulbs going on all over there…

What is the character of our governing body that's taken on this apparatus? What times do we live in?

Well this is the Roman Empire. This is the Roman Empire before the fall - there is no question. I have written extensively in From The Wilderness and we've been right - we talk about a thing called a map. You ever have the experience where you're reading a map - you're trying to go to a party or some place you've never been before? And you follow this map and you read it and you see according to the map I'm supposed to be at 34th and Main. And you look up at the street sign and it says 34th and Main. You feel good. But if you look up at the street sign and it says 5th and Broadway, you get this real sinking feeling inside. Everybody - most of the world is operating from a bad map. From The Wilderness has a good map because we've been able to predict what's going to happen, we can explain it and make sense out of it.

The map that we're following is that - and this is where I agree wholeheartedly with the Le Monde in Paris - they're a fabulous publication that are about to give us a pretty decent endorsement in September - this month - is that organized crime is probably the lubricating force for the entire world economy right now. There's a trillion dollars a year in organized crime money. That trillion dollars a year is liquid and if you think of money kind of - criminal money, drug money - as water, which is thin - it can flow very quickly form point a to point b. And in the world markets, where you apply money is where you control business. You control markets. You control banks. You control interest rates. Drug money flows fastest. Money that is not criminal money has to go though regulations and banking systems, it has to go through taxations. It's tracked. The lawyers follow it. That money moves like molasses.

So those who have the access to the cheapest capital always win. That's why, if you don't play with drug money in the world economy today, you can't play at all. That's why we have documented that drug money was going directly into Al Gore's presidential campaign. Why? Because the Republicans, going as far back as Reagan, were using drug money and that's how they put Reagan into office - with Bill Casey. If you don't play in that mode, you can't play at all. But that is like - the analogy I use is it's like a snake eating its own tail - it's got to stop sooner or later.

We were faced with a huge economic lapse in 1997 when the Asian economies collapsed and the whole world held its breath, waiting for the other shoe to drop in the American markets. Well it didn't drop. But you know why it didn't drop? Because we went to war in Kosovo. We blew up several hundred billion dollars worth of bridges and refineries and factories. The KLA controls 77% of the heroin that's entering into Western Europe. We loosened up that money. American companies got all these new contracts to rebuild the refineries, the bridges and the economy was saved. Now we're going to war in Colombia - we have already taken combat casualties but it's not sustainable because Colombia is and will become another Vietnam. And South America is already saying we're not going there. So I think we're on the brink of some really serious economic upheavals in the US economy that are essential because the system cannot last. The way I see it - this is this very much like Rome. And I see some big changes coming very soon.

Obviously you deploy information in the desire that people might become conscious and make a change. What do you think - when the average American says a) why is this not in the major media and b) if it's true then it's gotta stop - when someone says why is this not in the major news media what do you say?

As far as the major media goes, it's real simple. First of all, if you look at what just happened with AOL and Time Warner who own CNN… We have proved in From The Wilderness that CNN was - flat lost a lawsuit over the use of serrin gas during Vietnam… the Tailwind Suits were settled and the former producer April Oliver just bought a six-bedroom house. I mean CNN cannot afford to tell the truth because what happened when they tried to tell the truth is Henry Kissinger and Colin Powell picked up the phone and scared Ted Turner to death by threatening his stock value on Wall Street.

It's very interesting to note that one of the companies that I track as far as laundering drug monies - General Electric - happens to own NBC. Now what happens - everybody knows that GE brings good things to life - they make DVDs, VCRs, they make everything - they make television sets, telephones. When drug money in South America says I'd like to buy 100 million dollars worth of TVs and DVDs so that someone laundering drug money in Colombia can open a chain of appliance stores and make that money legal, GE asks absolutely no questions about where that money is coming from. As a matter of fact there are no requirements for Wall Street to report drug money being invested.

If you and I go to a bank and we take in $10,001 in cash, the bank has to fill out a currency transaction report because you might be laundering money. GE can accept a check for 100 million dollars from the biggest drug lord in the world and there is no requirement in the world that GE report that to anybody. But with a thing called the price to earnings ratio on their shares, a hundred million dollars in net profit for GE in South America - which was very easily done last year - equates to, at a price to earnings ratio of 30 to 1, an increase in GE's stock value of 3 billion dollars.

So we're living in a hugely inflated bubble and not one of the major media outlets in this country - all of which are publicly traded corporations afraid of takeover, trying to maximize profits - can afford to tell the truth. That's why we see these great opportunities for little organizations like From The Wilderness and you guys and everybody else that's coming up now - because what we're peddling is the truth and what we find is the truth sells.

Very well said.

So now the second part of the question is this: what do you think the reaction of the American people will be when a critical mass of people actually digests this information in a rational way?

Denial is not a river in Egypt. There's gonna be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth. If I think of this in terms of - and this is a model that I like - there's several ways that I describe this - America is hopelessly addicted to its consumerism… and blinded by the fact that the good things that we enjoy in our lives are at the price of slave labor in Indonesia, East Timor and all over the world. But we're blind to that - the same way that a drunk on a barstool is blind to the fact that he's drunk. Alcoholics don't stop because they don't know when to stop, they don't know how. One is too many and ten thousand is not enough.

The two models that I use to describe what happens in the American culture - one of which is we're like a family in which the father is molesting the youngest daughter - and everybody in the family conspires in a conspiracy of silence to scapegoat the youngest daughter because they're afraid of what's going to happen to the family if they speak out - or worse yet, oh my god, he's going to come after me. America very much works that way.

But the other way that I look at it is that we have to hit a bottom. Something is going to have to break. Something's gonna have to fall out - something's gonna have to destabilize the equilibrium here before people will even begin to look at what's going on. Yes, we've made some enormous progress over the last five years because there's a real hunger for good information, but as far as reaching the vast majority of the American people, something's gonna have to knock 'em off their barstool.

Cool. How would you characterize our "democracy" - the two party system? Is there any truth to the fact that we elect our officials?

No. It's a joke. There are two ends of the same party. There are two factions. There's what I like to call a Clinton faction - even though he is leaving office - and a Bush faction. But they are like the Genoveses and the Gambinos. If I am going to be the shopkeeper who is gonna have - who is gonna be oppressed - it doesn't make any difference to me whether there's a Gambino or a Genovese sticking a gun in my face and taking the money out of my pocket. We rationalize this by saying, well they keep the economy good etc, etc. That's the blind spot.

But no one in the American political system is allowed to rise to the level where they can seriously compete for the White House unless they are already compromised. Period. I know - I've been there. I was the press spokesman for the Perot presidential campaign in Los Angeles County in 1992. I had known Ross Perot before - we had spoken on issues of the POWs and the CIA and drugs, and what I found out is I have yet to meet a millionaire who has my best interest at heart. And what I saw done was Ross had no intention of winning and it was all fixed even as far back as '92. I don't think we've had a fair election in this country since John Kennedy, even if that was fair - so…

Can you explain some of the political adventures or misadventures that brought the CIA to the public eye around drug dealing?

Well if you go back historically, the Agency has been real active in Central America since the Second World War. I mean the Agency was down there even before it was CIA with United Fruit and all the major landowners in Central America. In 1979, Anastasio Samosa, the dictator of Nicaragua, was overthrown by the Sandino movement - the Sandinistas. And they were a "Marxist" movement and Ronald Reagan mobilized the country to stave off this alleged threat of communist imperialism on America's doorstep. And it was a whole lot of rubric and Congress didn't really want to get involved in it deeply. Congress passed some amendments to the Military Appropriations Acts known as the Bowlan Amendments, which were passed I think first in 1981 and again in 1984 - they were Bowlan 1 and 2 - which limited direct military aid to the Contras - the people fighting the Sandinistas.

And so the CIA and Ronald Reagan and Bill Casey and George Bush (vice president George Bush) - were running the whole operation - we know that now. They circumvented the will of Congress and there was this explosion of drug trafficking all throughout Central America, co-ordinated by the CIA. And we now have the CIA's own documents - and I can show you one later - it's a great graphic - it's the CIA's volume 2 of their own Inspector General's Report from 1998 where, in their own words, the Agency admits that of the 58 known Contra groups, 58 were involved with drugs. And that the Agency dealt with them - it protected six traffickers - kept them out of jail - one guy moving four tons of cocaine a month was using a bank account opened by White House staffer Oliver North. Other CIA assets were caught moving like 200 kilos at a time - 200 kilos is not personal use - and he was saying well I can't tell you what I'm doing because I'm doing it for the National Security Council - that's the White House organ that oversees the Central Intelligence Agency. So we saw this huge explosion.

The point I make in my lectures is that in the mid to late 70s, we in America - those of us who are old enough to remember - dealt with cartels but we didn't deal with drug cartels, we dealt with oil cartels. We had an oil crisis and it almost crippled the American economy. We had been subsidized by very cheap oil that we acquired by, in a sense, exploiting other countries. Well, then we had cartels of cocaine and we went from 40 to 50 metric tons a year to 600 metric tons a year and that money was moved through Wall Street and that became in effect the capital that replaced oil in the US economy.

How do you characterize the true governance in the world and is this national or international?

Well I think some of this is really traceable. Some people talk about something called the Illuminati. I've never met an Illuminati. When people start to talk to me about the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations and the Bildebergers - those are all readily identifiable groups of people who are the wealthiest of the wealthy in the world. And we find the Rothschilds and there are groups of wealth in the world that are so powerful that political movements don't ever touch them. And yes, they are in effect a guiding unseen hand. I have yet to see one individual person - I don't think there's a Mr. Big somewhere like in the Wizard of Oz pulling levers - you know, that's responsible for all the evil. I've never yet found one person who, if you killed them, all the evil would go away.

What do you think about the virus thing? I guess what I'm asking is what's the one major threat to the power base of the powerful if there was a population explosion a) do you think that is it? and b) do you think they would try to limit it through medical means?

Well I don't know that a population explosion is a threat to the powers that be. I think - there's a great book called When Corporations Rule the World by Howard Korten - David Korten, I mean. It's a fabulous book. And it talks about basically the world evolving into three groups of people: one is the people who are the ultra-rich; then there's the, let's say the 20%, who produce and consume; and then there's all these, as Henry Kissinger would call them, useless eaters - and the useless eaters get in the way. The trick of this kind of economy that we live in now - I call it a search and destroy economy -which is how the profits are made - by blowing things up and by killing people - is that when it comes time for population reduction, they'll find a way to make a profit out of it.

When you look at the drug issue and what's happening in America, do you think that other countries would be concerned about the way that America is doing business or do you think it's something that goes across the board?

No… there are geographic considerations. I think it's very safe to say that there's somewhat of a schism between the Western Hemisphere and Europe. I've been reading some stuff out of Russia. Some Russian economists lately were recommending that Russia ally with Germany. And I see the Euro as being threatened. And America is a carnivorous alcoholic that - it will just eat up anything unless somebody stops it! The multi-national corporations that cross boundaries - there are some great examples: Deutche Telecom, Bertlesmann Publishing… But I think it's very safe to say, if I want to read something about America, I read something in French or from Britain. So I think that yeah, there are some regional conflicts left to be resolved.

What's happening in Africa?

Yeah, well I just read something today from the Times of London, which I thought was fascinating that I've often speculated about, and my question has been why is coca only grown in South America when there are great highlands in Central Africa? And The London Times today was talking about that it might be coming up but I read something recently that pretty soon, blacks will be in the minority in South Africa - thanks to AIDS. There is - Africa to me seems to be like a long-term planned rape, is about the best way that I could put it.

Like a slow motion holocaust…

Yeah.

Interesting. I want to talk about Clinton for a bit because I think that people have this - I mean it's incredible - most people don't even understand Mena. I went to see Christopher Simpson at the American University and this elderly black woman was in the cab with me and she just thought Clinton was the best thing because he understands… Is he not the ultimate millennial politician, and can you just tell us a little about who he really is?

Bill Clinton - well first of all he was up to his eyeballs in CIA cocaine in Mena, Arkansas. Again it's provable - The Wall Street Journal covered it. The New York Times covered the aspects of that. Gary Webb and his fabulous book Dark Alliance produced documents showing that CIA contracts at the Mena airport were negotiated by the Rose Law Firm - Hillary's law firm. There is no question that Bill came up in that milieu. Bill Clinton is a guy, and my democratic drug money piece also covered this - showing that the CIA has been under Clinton control funneling money into the Democratic Party - he's a guy who came up with this driving ambition to become president. He would do anything to be president. And he did do anything to become president. He is a lean mean vicious ruthless street fighter. Yes, he came from humble beginnings - his mother was a nurse, there was drinking in the background, his father died in a car crash… Some people have speculated that his real father might be Winthrop Rockefeller, who knows? But he is not a guy who came up in the fourth generation in-bred George W. Bush style, you know, who has never had to fight a fair fight in his life. And my personal belief is that one on one or politically even, the Clinton faction would kick the Bush faction every time - except the Bush faction just has just lots more money.

Clinton played the games he had to play. I firmly believe that Bill Clinton was connected to the CIA as far back as when he was at Oxford. I believe his trip to Moscow was not to protest the war. I believe it was to spy on Americans. He was making his bones. Clinton - and I've documented this very completely - about how Bill Clinton blackmailed his way out of the impeachment with the CIA proof - with the proof in the CIA investigations that Reagan and Bush had been dealing cocaine and ordering it - that Bush was involved in it first-hand, and that's where we got volume two. The big side story of that is that the Gary Webb story is broken in August '96. We were promised all these investigations. Maxine Waters jumped in and was running all around the country screaming about CIA and cocaine. In March of 1998, Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Alan Greenspan, did a walking tour of South Central and Maxine received a 300 million dollar empowerment grant. Then in May, Maxine Waters receives a smoking gun letter from Reagan attorney general William French Smith to Bill Casey in writing, where it said the CIA no longer has to report drug trafficking by its agents! It's in writing! Then in October of '98, CIA inspector general Frederick Hitz released - well actually he didn't release it - he had finished a report as far back as May or June of '98 and it was classified as top secret. And it was left to the CIA director George Tenet to declassify it for public consumption. Well George Tenet works for Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton appoints the head of the CIA. Head of the CIA takes Clinton's orders. That report - that CIA report that absolutely destroys George Bush - which is a public document - you can access it off my web site copvcia.com and I have these extracts that I sell - was released to the public on October 8, 1998 one hour after Henry Hyde's committee on the judiciary voted to start the impeachment of Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton picked up the phone and said, they're gonna impeach me? George Tenet, CIA, release the report that sinks George Bush, we'll see how far they want to go. Click. Maxine Waters stops screaming about CIA and drugs and she starts supporting Bill Clinton.

Now the interesting thing that my investigations have revealed is that one of the people who helped negotiate the smoking gun memorandum was a guy on the attorney general's staff named Ken Starr. That's the guy who was prosecuting Clinton! Clinton was blackmailing the Republicans. And Clinton - both sides played the same game and Clinton basically says. "You wanna take me down? I'll bring the whole government down!" And I had six hits on my web site on February 11, 1999, when the Senate was doing the trial of Bill Clinton. They were reading my stories on the impeachment and that's when the whole story caved in.

I would think that Mena, Arkansas was definitely linked - at that time Clinton and Bush were almost working together. Would you say that? And if so, what is Democrat versus Republican mean - from a business perspective? Is it like World Wrestling Federation? It's very similar isn't it?

Well don't look at it like that. Look at it like the Roman Empire. There's only one emperor and people come up and they're groomed in their ranks. But if they see the opportunity to strike, they're gonna strike. Bill Clinton was created in the faction - what I documented in my Democratic drug money pipeline story is that Charles Menatt, former DNC Chair in like 81-82, came in at a time when the Democratic Party was almost down and out for the count. Reagan landslide. They owned the Senate - Reagan won by a landslide. They had used CIA and drug money through John Singlab, in the World Anti-Communist League, to help elect Reagan. The Republicans had everything; the Democrats had nothing. Then you see guys like Charles Menatt and Tony Cuelo. Charles Menatt, we have linked to drug smuggler Barry Seal through a real estate developer and leased airplanes. Menatt is now the ambassador to the Dominican Republic, which is funneling drug money into the campaign coffers in New York City. We've documented that - that article is up for a prize.

The point I'm making is this: Bill Clinton made his bones and worked within the system. He was utterly and totally ambitious, ok? So he was in effect, created by the Bush faction, but he is the young guy who looked at the weakness of the Old Guard and he struck. And he took over. Everybody has to make alliances. In other words, we only have one president but every president for the last 100 or so years came up through either the Republican or the Democratic machine - it doesn't make any difference. A guy sets his weakness. If he's a hunter, he strikes and that's what Bill Clinton did.

When you talk about the Shadow Convention - describe that. What is that? I mean how can that go on in broad daylight?

Everybody was there. That's the funny part about it. We had in this presidential election year running at the same time as the major political party conventions in Philadelphia and in Los Angeles things called the Shadow Conventions. And they were extremely well funded. George Soros - the billionaire George Soros, who has been an activist so to speak for drug legalization, Ariana Huffington, syndicated columnist, millionaire, writer, Scott Harshbarger of Common Cause, Ethan Nadelman of The Linda Smith Drug Policy Foundation… Some very big names got up and they put up millions of dollars with network quality broadcast facilities, press rooms, green rooms, cable, wiring, monitoring, editing rooms - to stage Shadow Conventions in both cities with three primary issues. One is the failed war on drugs, which is a very valid issue. The poverty wealth gap, and campaign finance reform. And basically these, in my opinion, in the cover story that we wrote for the last issue of From The Wilderness, the August 31 issue, was to describe this as the place where the issues for the conventions four years from now are being hatched and groomed. We're going to see a huge turn over in this country.

This is also the place where politicians knew that their real power bases were, but this was - they couldn't afford to acknowledge these power bases on the floor of the main conventions on nightly news. People advocating the decriminalization of drugs? Medical marijuana? Oh my god! Politicians can't - but they know that that's the future. So the Shadow Convention served this purpose - they kind of operated in the shadows. And I wrote the whole story kind of like The Twilight Zone. And you saw - I wasn't in Philadelphia - but you saw in Los Angeles, the most powerful names coming - you saw Maxine Waters, you saw Charlie Rangle, you saw California Republican Congressman Tom Campbell, you saw Governor Gary Johnson of New Mexico, a Republican advocate for decriminalization, you saw John Conyers, the ranking Democrat on House Judiciary, Jesse Jackson. You saw the big names turn out for this because this is where they're kind of rehearsing and getting their shtick together to reform the political system.

The drug war is going to have to end soon. It's gotten so out of hand and so ridiculous, they may actually have to flip the model - and I think the Shadow Convention is getting ready for that. If you think of all the money they've made on having drugs illegal and all the drug dealers in the world, think about how much they can make by cleaning it all up now. Create the problem, solve the problem - make the money on both sides. I think that's what's coming.

Are we living in a world now where we're totally satiated? Most people would say in America, well we're just totally free, we can have anything we want. Is that really true?

No. We are living - the world needs such a serious chiropractic adjustment that I can't even begin to tell you. We have been conditioned to believe that everything in our lives is measured by material wealth - by material solutions - completely ignoring the fact that man has emotional and spiritual needs as well. The problem is that you can't own spirituality, nor can you sell it and make a profit from it. So the people that control that, brush that off to the side. We're living in a world that's just totally neglected all of man's inner needs - and we're gonna pay a price for it.

Do you believe that there's a guiding higher power… do you think there's a destiny or a fate that's much larger than what humans can manufacture?

Albert Einstein said that once you know there's a god, it makes no difference whether you believe in one. And I know there's a god and I witness. One of the things that I say frequently is that I believe Earth is this place where they put all the screw-ups in the universe so we can't mess up everyone else's life. And we're here until we get things right and figure it out. Maybe Don Henley's got it right, you know - we're not gonna get off this planet for a million years until we straighten ourselves out. So there is a god - yes - and I think that the real challenge of mankind is to survive our own power.

Cool. Revolution or evolution?

Yes.

Do you have any advice for people like us who are attempting to make this information as palatable as possible and are going to use all of our power to charismatize it and get it into the mainstream media?

You go girl. Just get it out!

What would you say to young people, now? Do we have to be guerrillas? Once we get what you're saying, what should we do?

Follow the money. Understand how money works. If you have a sense in some part of your body, some part of your soul, that something's not right, you're probably right. Something isn't right. I grew up in the 60s - the 50s and the 60s - and you know, one of the things was question authority. Question authority. Do not accept the mind control that's being fed to you - just don't do it.

What do you think the role of the mainstream media in its entertainment and in the movies that are coming out is in maintaining the power base? Is there a link there?

Oh yeah. American media acculturates - I think that's a good word - it teaches the whole world. It's subliminal. It's soft. It's elegant. And it's insidious. And it's bad. You know, people believe that America is the land of the free and the home of the brave and even a lot of people here believe it. And yet we are a country that is causing almost all of the ills all over the world. We're blowing things up, we're killing people, we're poisoning them, we're enslaving them, we're doing it all. But it's largely American entertainment that makes that possible - because people believe we're the good guys.

When people say war makes money, are wars in fact manufactured? And to a person who might never conceive of that because they think it's about passions, can you explain that to us?

No war is not about passion. War is about money. General Smedley Butler, a Marine general in 1923 said war is a great racket and he was ashamed… War is all about making money. Peter Dale Scott who - we will be publishing a book - he wrote a book called The War Conspiracy about Vietnam in 1970. The book was not published or printed until 1972. And when the book was printed the Central Intelligence Agency bought all 50,000 copies - it's never been sold in America. I'm going to be bringing that book out for the first time - knock wood - by the end of the year 2000. That book is all about how wars are set up and manufactured strictly for the purpose of making profits and how we will arm and create both sides of the conflict in order to profit from it.

In the present case in Colombia - all three factions in Colombia - the FARQ guerrillas, the right-wing paramilitaries and the government - the Army - are all dealing drugs. We're sending 1.3 billion in aid to help the government, however, the right wing guerrillas have acknowledged that most of their money comes from dealing drugs. But guess what? They invest that money in Wall Street! Now we've also documented how the FARQ guerrillas are receiving most of their weapons from the Russian military. But guess what? The Russian government - the Russians have laundered as much as 12 billion dollars in weapons and drug profits through the Bank of New York. So we create and arm both sides of the conflict to profit from it.

With Colombia, explain how that war is being architected and how it is being played out in the press?

Let's work on the structure of the war in Colombia first. I think that's far more important to understand why Colombia is like Vietnam. There are so many similarities between Colombia and Vietnam. First of all, Colombia would be a regional conflict like Vietnam was. The Vietnam War was not just Vietnam, it was North Vietnam, South Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Guam, you know, China, the whole surrounding region. And the Colombian conflict will be Colombia, Venezuela, Peru, Bolivia, Equador, Panama, Colombia, maybe even Mexico, Puerto Rico certainly. We've admitted that we are going to stage for invasion or for intervention in Puerto Rico when we go in. Marines are now training and they've been landing on Colombian beaches - you haven't been hearing that.

One of the reasons why Colombia is like Vietnam is because we already have about 300 Special Forces Green Beret advisors on the ground training Colombian troops, but we have maybe 500 - 1,000 former - and I use that term real loosely - CIA special forces personnel who have supposedly retired from the military and are now working for two corporations: Dyncorp and MPRI. And they're in Colombia as "civilian advisors" but they're going out on combat missions. They're flying airplanes, they're shooting, they're being shot. We've had army personnel shot down already.

About a year ago we had an army plane shot down by a sand missile. We have major investment corporations like Nicolas Brady's D'arby Investments. Nicolas Brady was George Bush's Secretary of the Treasury. He has just opened a billion dollar investment partnership with a group called Corfinseera - based in Medellin, Colombia to build roads and dams. And what we saw in Vietnam with major companies like Brown & Root - going in to build Comram Bay, making billions of dollars in profit.

So we're going in to suck out. You see for twenty or thirty years now, the drug money has been building up in Colombia. There's trillions of dollars in equity that's accumulated and it's become a threat to Wall Street's control - so we have to go down and blow the country up to take the money back to make sure it doesn't become powerful. Venezuela is not going along with this like Cambodia would not go along with the Vietnam War. And Laos wouldn't either. President Yugo Chavez is denying American planes over-flight, so we're gonna sabotage the Venezuelan economy - this is going to suck us into a hemispheric conflict just like Vietnam.

The American press - this is the difference… In Vietnam, we were told we were going in to fight the evil Communists. Well, we don't have any more Communist boogeymen. I mean China is there but it's not really a military threat unless you're on the far right and totally needing Lithium. But what we see is that we're being told that we're going to fight the evil drug lords. Well the American press even now is having trouble selling that to the American people. And even now in the first or second week in September of 2000, we're starting to have body counts turn up in the news. It's just like Vietnam but the press is having a real hard time dealing with it. This is the sign of the end of the road for this system - it's starting to crumble right now.

When you say body counts, do you mean body counts of American soldiers?

No body counts of the - the Colombian army announced today in a fight, it was attacked by guerrillas and the Colombian army took 5 casualties but killed 27 guerrillas. And a C-47 gunship crashed into a mountainside - it wasn't shot down - it just crashed on its own… you know but they are reporting this like Vietnam and I will never forget the coverage from Vietnam exactly the way it played out because these were my high school classmates that were dying. And it's sounding very similar right now.

On the streets of LA as a police officer and as someone who had a window into the Intelligence community, what's it like for the cops right now?

Well in Los Angeles, we have this huge scandal right now - The Ramparts Division scandal. Being a policeman in LA - it bears absolutely no relationship to what it was like when I was on the streets in 1975 - that's a quarter of a century ago, I'm sorry to say. Cops now don't even think the way I thought. I mean we controlled the streets with minimal stuff and maybe 7,000 policemen, as opposed to the 11,000 today, because we used our heads. Now policemen, they are - there's no initiative, there's no incentive. They are automaton-like - trained, controlled, managed. I would not be a policeman today - certainly not in Los Angeles. There are currently right now in the United States 60,000 active open cases of police corruption and that's due to drug money. When I was on the street, nobody I worked with would ever have even thought of taking a bribe or doing something illegal.

So in other words, what has the drug trade done to the atmosphere on the streets? What is it like out there? Is it agitated with the black gangs? What has it done?

Well the black gangs have kind of played down. Crack cocaine in Los Angeles has pretty much disappeared and that's by and large due to the political pressure. I'm very much active locally, in the streets here - I'm very well known in South Central Los Angeles over in the crack trade. Crack has pretty much disappeared from South Central. You see heroin coming up, but the gangs aren't fighting each other. The gangs were part of a manufactured scenario.

And let's take a minute on Daryl Gates who was the chief of police who brought us the battering rams and the swat teams and this huge war that got so brutal and vile. In 1992, during the presidential campaign, Daryl Gates made a public statement - he was our chief here - that the only position he would accept in a second Bush administration would be Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Now let me ask you a question. What are his qualifications? Daryl Gates' driver - bodyguard John Xavier Vock in 1985, and I copied this because I had known Vock in organized crime intelligence division of LAPD, was convicted of moonlighting for the CIA on city time. He got a six month suspended sentence - was suspended form LAPD for 6 months and a years suspended sentence in probation. The documents turned up in court. He was doing all this work while he had, you know, had worked for the chief of organized crime intelligence, and giving it - doing it directly for the CIA. Throughout the 80s, Daryl continued to have meetings with CIA personnel - it's in his activity logs as chief of police. The point I'm making is that the gangs were also created and armed…

There is a synergy - it's called the Hegellian dialectic - where you create a problem so that you can solve the problem and when you solve the problem, you get the solution that you wanted to have to begin with anyway but you've gotta create the problem first. The real estate in Los Angeles was absolutely turned over, Draconian laws were passed, police were more heavily armed, we got bigger deeper drug laws, asset forfeiture and again it's the 'snake eating its own tail' syndrome, which ultimately has to end. But Daryl Gates has been CIA his whole career - there are documents and witness statements going back as far as 1960, when he was Captain of Intelligence that he was directly tied to the Agency.

Would you say that LA was a prime operating ground for the whole CIA drug culture? Could you say that? Talk about it in a broad way.

Historically the LAPD and the CIA have been very close - closer than most other agencies. Bill Parker who was our chief in the 50s hated the FBI… hated J. Edgar Hoover - and he deliberately made his bed, made his bones, with CIA and invited the CIA to come in and use LAPD as a playground. We're seeing, I think, the devolution of that now in the Ramparts scandal as the Justice Department which is the Clinton opposite to the Bush faction, is kind of coming in and taking over. But the Agency has dealt with NYPD - I have documented the case - Colonel Albert Vincent Corone, detective first grade, was CIA his whole life. I've held the man's phone book in my hand. There's Bill Casey's home address and phone number, ok - right in the guys phone book! New Orleans PD, Chicago PD, you see the agencies - in every major police department in the country, the Agency has people ready to go all the time.

Last question. What is the power of money? At the end of the day, drugs means money. Talk a bit about that and what it does to policemen, or to law and order?

Well I think it's the whole system. Most rank and file policemen on the street are not what I would call innovative free thinkers. They aren't the kind of guys who would see an opportunity to go illegal and just kind of do that on their own initiative. They have to see or sense that it's going on in a climate that allows them to get away with it. So we see the corruption working throughout society. When drug money is going directly into Wall Street, well why not, you know, if you're a cop!