injusticebusters logo

Brian Dueck's examination (4)


101

538 Q And did you tell Mr. Miazga that you believed

them to be true?

A I don't recall whether we had that conversation

or not. I know Mr. Miazga also interviewed

social workers who were involved with that. So

I have no idea.

539 Q And again, all we have to do is look at P-1 to

see if there's any notes regarding the incidents

out at the school. What school was it exactly,

what was the name of the school?

A Warman Elementary.

540 Q And as it relates to the Warman Elementary

School you believe that Michael probably did

assault other children?

A I would suggest at his age we would call it

engage in sexual activity with other children

his own age.

541 Q And you don't recollect imparting that

information to Mr. Miazga?

A I don't recollect that at all, no. I know Mr.

Miazga was aware of what Michael was doing.

542 Q And you don't recollect whether or not you

followed up to find out whether the RCMP had

investigated these matters?

A No, I didn't.

543 Q And you did not follow up to determine whether


102

the school was taking measures against Michael

to keep him from other children?

A I believe there were a lot of measures in place

that I was told about, teacher aides, the

Thompson children, the older children, going to

school to assist with these children.

544 Q Maybe we'll just continue along these lines. I

see it's getting to be 12:05. There's a lot of

measures, you said, that were being taken

against Michael --

A Against all of the children.

545 Q Let's deal only with Michael, there's a lot of

measures, would you say there's a lot of

measures against Michael, he's the one abusing

other children or having sexual relations with

the other children?

A I think there were also allegations that the

girls were sexually active.

546 Q As it relates to Michael, do you know what some

of these measures were other than teachers'

aides?

A No, I don't. You'd have to talk to Social

Services about that.

547 Q But your evidence was that there were lots of

measures.

A Well I know that the Thompsons were trying


103

different things in their home, there were

different programs that Carol Bunko-Ruys was

trying with them. They had teacher aides in the

school with them.

548 Q And as it relates to the teachers' aides, how

were they going to help in keeping Michael away

from other children?

A Well, I think that was the whole idea, that they

would be there with him wherever he went.

549 Q And as it relates to the Thompsons, what

measures were they going to take, as it relates

to Michael, to keep him away from other

children?

A I have no idea.

550 Q You have no idea even today?

A No.

551 Q And as it relates to Bunko-Ruys, who you were

working with, what measures did she recommend be

taken to keep Michael away from other children?

A Again, that would be -- you'd have to ask Bunko-

Ruys that.

552 Q Well you'd certainly want to have that

information, wouldn't you, before you saw Mr.

Hinz or Mr. Miazga so that they would be in a

position to understand the nature of the

complainant, Michael Ross?


104

A I think they understood very -- I think Mr.

Miazga understood very clearly the nature of the

complainant.

553 Q So you think he did?

A Right. There are allegations in the tapes of

Michael being sexually active with his own

sisters.

554 Q Yes.

A I mean, obviously, Mr. Miazga's aware of that.

I think it's very obvious that all three of

these children were sexually active and that Mr.

Miazga and Ms. Hansen were aware of that.

555 Q All right. So what you're saying, then, is that

you think that Matt Miazga would be aware. You

can't speak for Matt Miazga, though, can you?

A That's right.

556 Q But how Matt Miazga becomes aware of anything

would depend partly on you as the investigating

officer?

A I think partly, yes.

557 Q And who supervised you to make sure that

everything that you were doing was being done

according to protocol?

A Well, I had Staff Sergeant Johnson, was the

staff sergeant in charge at that time. John

Quinn was the inspector, he's now the chief in


105

P.A. I would assume those would be my

supervisors.

MR. BORDEN: All right. We'll just leave it

there, then, and come back at what time, it's

your prerogative, you're out of town, so --

MR. GERRAND: Sure. Could you give me some

indication -- certainly, I'm prepared to put on

the record, I appreciate that Mr. Klassen isn't

represented by counsel, I'm prepared to agree

that the examination for discovery that you are

conducting can be adopted by Mr. Klassen.

MR. BORDEN: I'll let Mr. Klassen speak for

himself, I don't represent him. All I'm saying

is today I interview your client, Brian Dueck,

on behalf of my clients and that this probably

will go on today and tomorrow, and hopefully,

we'll be finished tomorrow. But I have to let

Mr. Klassen speak for himself.

MR. GERRAND: So just in terms of timing, we'll

anticipate that you're going to be this after-

noon and if we start at 1:30 how long would you

anticipate wanting to go this afternoon, till

3:30 or 4:00?

MR. BORDEN: Sure, and then tomorrow we'll

start again.

MR. GERRAND: 10:00 to 12:00, 1:30 to 3:30 or


106

4:00?

MR. BORDEN: Yeah.

MR. GERRAND: You anticipate that you'll be

that long yourself?

MR. BORDEN: Oh, yes. I haven't even started

with our documents, Mr. Gerrand, I'm just trying

to get some of the backdrop here to this case.

MR. GERRAND: Okay, you think you're going to

be at least those two days. Well, I guess we'll

take it from there and see what develops after

tomorrow afternoon is done.

MR. BORDEN: And then, again, Mr. Klassen --

you can make inquiries of Mr. Klassen at that

time what he intends to do and what his position

is on anything.

MR. GERRAND: Okay.

(Examination recessed from 12:10 p.m. to 1:40 p.m.)

558 Q MR. BORDEN: So, I remind you that you are

under oath and just resuming your examination

for discovery.

A Sure.

559 Q Your answers continue to be binding upon you in

these proceedings.

A I want to make a point here. In reviewing this

report this morning -- you asked about how the

events unfolded with Taco Time, and in reviewing


107

this report I have to change what I said in that

I did meet these children before that. It was

as a result of a file that another member had

investigated and I was contacted by Social

Services then, did an interview with four

children, nothing came of that, and then it was

left and the Taco Time meeting came later. It

was a mistake on my part, I was mixed up between

the '89 one there and the '90 where I started

the interviewing with the children. I just want

that to be on record.

560 Q Have you had the opportunity to review Exhibit

P-1?

A The whole file?

561 Q Yes.

A I received this Monday at noon and tried my best

to get through all of these documents and,

unfortunately, no, I didn't -- I mean we're

talking 13 years here.

562 Q Would you, then, undertake to review Exhibit P-1

and the video tapes of your interviews with the

children of October-November of 1990 after these

examinations for discovery and undertake to let

us know at a very early time whether some of the

evidence that you may have given here is really

inconsistent with those reports?


108

MR. GERRAND: We'll certainly do that with

respect to Exhibit P-1. I don't know that

there's been any evidence given with respect to

the video tapes.

UNDERTAKING #2: REVIEW EXHIBIT P-1 & ADVISE IF ANY

EVIDENCE GIVEN BY SUPERINTENDENT DUECK IS INCONSISTENT

WITH IT

MR. BORDEN: That's very true, Mr. Gerrand,

but I'm not finished this examination for

discovery.

MR. GERRAND: Fair enough.

563 Q MR. BORDEN: After the Klassens and Kvellos

were charged who uttered the words "scandal of

the century"?

A Gosh, I don't know. I was interviewed by many

media outlets. I really don't know.

564 Q After the charges were laid the media was at

your door?

A They were at my door before the charges were

laid, long before.

565 Q And the only parties up to that point in time

that would have had an intimate understanding of

this file would be you, Sergeant [sic] Dueck at

the time, Matt Miazga, Sonja Hansen, Carol

Bunko-Ruys?

A I would say, yeah.


109

566 Q Could you add to that list any other party that

may have had an intimate knowledge of that file?

A I mentioned this morning Liz Newton and Diane

Ens I would suggest would.

567 Q Now do you recall ever saying to the media that

this matter involving the Klassens and Kvellos

and these charges related to witchcraft?

A That these charges related to witchcraft?

568 Q Yes.

A Not with the Klassens and Kvellos, I would have

never said that. In fact, I don't believe I

would have said that to anyone.

569 Q That's fair. Did you ever say words to that

effect, for instance, that these charges against

the Klassens and Kvellos related to rituals, or

satanic rituals?

A No.

570 Q So if those words were uttered to the press it

would not be by you?

A I don't believe so.

571 Q Because you've always been of the view that if

there's any rituals it would have involved the

natural mother and father and the boyfriend, Don

White?

A That's right.

572 Q Now, did you read some of these news stories?


110

A Yes.

573 Q So would you have read the news stories after

your interviews?

A I probably did, I don't recall reading them all.

574 Q And if you had seen words to the effect that the

Klassens and the Kvellos were involved in

witchcraft would you have taken steps to ensure

that there was no misunderstanding?

MR. GERRAND: I don't think the witness should

answer the question. You're asking him to

speculate about something that he hasn't

indicated he even read.

575 Q MR. BORDEN: You did say, though, that you

read the news stories, particularly in the Star

Phoenix after the charges were laid, did you

not?

A I read some of them, yes.

576 Q Some of the ones very shortly after the charges

were laid, as a matter of fact, is that correct?

A That's right.

577 Q Did you advise any officer or employee of the

StarPhoenix that there was a misrepresentation

in any of those stories?

A No.

578 Q I'm going back to the words "scandal of the

century," was that ever used by Matt Miazga


111

prior to the laying of the charges?

A I have no idea.

579 Q Or by Terry Hinz?

A I have no idea.

580 Q But what you do have an idea of is that you did

not employ those words?

A I don't believe I did, no.

581 Q Did you believe at the time when you saw those

words, "scandal of the century," as used by the

media, that it was, in fact, so, it was a

scandal?

A No, I didn't. I felt that was very sensation-

alized.

582 Q Did you let anyone know what your belief was at

that time, that it was sensationalized?

A In the media?

583 Q Yes.

A No.

584 Q There were a number of people that Michael

alleged had assaulted him, I want to go through

a list with you, because there's going to be

another list later on, and you can just say yes

or no to this list of the people that Michael

said assaulted him sexually. Dennis Kvello?

A Yes.

585 Q Diane Kvello?


112

A Yes.

586 Q Sheldon Kvello?

A Yes.

587 Q Sherry Kvello?

A Yes.

588 Q Richard Klassen?

A Yes.

589 Q Kari Klassen?

A Yes.

590 Q Pamela Klassen?

A Yes.

591 Q Marie Klassen?

A Yes.

592 Q John Klassen?

A Yes.

593 Q Myrna Klassen?

A Yes.

594 Q Peter Dale Klassen?

A Yes.

595 Q Anita Janine Klassen?

A Yes.

596 Q And I've just read the names of the plaintiffs

from our pleadings. There were, however, a

number of other people that Michael said he had

sexual relations with, or other people that he

had been abused by?


113

A M'hm.

597 Q Do you have a list of those other people?

A There should be in one of these documents here,

yes.

598 Q Can you help us with that?

A Oh, gosh. Well, I mean, his birth parents,

Donald White.

MR. GERRAND: No, the question was do you know

if there's a list?

A Yeah. I have a list of names -- I'd have to go

through it, I don't know exactly where it is,

it's in the documents, though.

599 Q MR. BORDEN: We'll come back to that list

later. When Michael first disclosed any kind of

sexual abuse to himself after you were involved,

did he start off by saying it was anyone of the

plaintiffs?

A No, he started off with his parents.

600 Q Did he start off by mentioning anybody that may

have lived in Southern Saskatchewan?

A Yes.

601 Q What was the name of that person?

A I don't think he started with them. His

grandparents.

602 Q Which grandparents were those?

A In Weyburn, I believe.


114

603 Q Yes.

A And I believe he mentioned an aunt or an uncle

down in Weyburn.

604 Q Did Michael say, according to your recollection,

that they had made him put his penis in their

bum?

A I don't recall exactly what he said.

605 Q Did you think it would be necessary to go down

south and perhaps visit some of those people?

A Well, we discussed that, doing that, but looked

at the age he would have been then and the

amount of disclosure made, and it was decided at

that time that we would stick with what was most

recent and go with that.

606 Q All right. So that in terms of this issue of

credibility, you were looking at the remoteness

in time?

A Right.

607 Q And that if there was any disclosure that

related to more recent events, those would be

the ones you focussed on?

A That's right.

608 Q If I may see Exhibit P-1, please? Sometimes, as

you know, as a police officer, people don't know

who the assailant is?

A Right.


115

609 Q They may not know who robbed the bank; is that

correct?

A Right.

610 Q So you would want to determine whether the

person knew the identity of the assailant; is

that correct?

A Sure.

611 Q What steps did you take to ensure that Michael

knew, for instance, the person, Dennis Kvello?

A What steps did we take?

612 Q M'hm.

A I believe because he knew the name, because he

knew the rest of the family, that that was

sufficient for me.

613 Q So since he knew the name that would be the

starting point?

A M'hm.

614 Q How do you know he knew the name?

A He knew the first name. Well, again, it's in

the disclosure, in the transcripts of the tapes.

615 Q All right. So one could look at those tapes to

determine how you knew or determined that he

could identify these people?

A That he knew who they were, yes.

616 Q If we look at Diane Kvello, I take it the same

thing would apply, all we have to do is look at


116

those tapes of the interviews?

A Well, understand here, we're talking about

interviews with three different children,

multiple interviews, I can't remember exactly

who said the last name. I know they all knew

the first name. I recall that one of them used

Klassen as a last name for Dennis and Diane, I

can't recall which one.

617 Q Now people learn names without meeting people?

A Sure.

618 Q You know names of people, I'm sure, without

having met them?

A M'hm.

619 Q How did you know when Michael mentioned Dennis

Kvello that Michael knew who he was talking

about?

A Because he related it to Dale and Anita, that it

was a relative. He knew the children, the names

of the children, he knew that they had foster

children.

620 Q Do you recall asking a question as it relates to

a Richard Klassen, about identity?

A Do I recall asking a question?

621 Q Yes, a specific question.

A No, I don't.

622 Q So that would mean you haven't reviewed those


117

tapes before you came here?

A I've reviewed them, but again, we're talking 12

to 13 years and three different complainants

here. I can't remember specific questions.

Again, they're in the transcripts.

623 Q Well what we have, for the record, is CDs and

DVDs of the actual interviews of the children.

A Sure.

624 Q And in order to prepare for this we went through

those. I take it that when you say you went

through them you're talking about 13 years ago?

A No, I've tried to get through all of the

transcripts of the interviews before this

started.

625 Q Does it ring a bell that when questions were

asked about Richard Klassen that Richard [sic]

gave the age 41 years?

MR. GERRAND: Richard?

MR. BORDEN: Yes.

MR. GERRAND: Richard gave the age 41 years?

626 Q MR. BORDEN: I'm sorry. Do you recall that

when Michael was describing Richard Klassen that

Michael gave to you the age 41 years?

A I don't recall that specifically.

627 Q Do you recall him describing Richard Klassen?

A I don't recall that specifically, no.


118

628 Q Do you remember him describing Richard as being

bald on one part with hair on the other?

A No, I don't.

629 Q Did you ask questions, then, at any time other

than on those tapes to ensure that the ages of

the parties were appropriate?

A Well, we're talking about eight- and ten-year-

old children here, I'm not sure they could be

terribly accurate in guessing age.

630 Q Right. So if you can't be terribly accurate in

guessing age then one would want to look at

other mannerisms that people might have had or

other attributes, physical attributes that they

may have had. Did you make those inquiries to

make sure that when they used the word Dennis

Kvello they had the right guy?

A No.

MR. BORDEN: I think here, Mr. Gerrand,

Exhibit P-1, and as you will all note, it's not

attached well, Exhibit 531(a) is separate from

all of the other documents attached to number

531(b). However, I'm going to look now at the

top of Exhibit P-1 and review these particular

names.

631 Q What you said in an investigation report was

that there were possible victims, birth children


119

of suspects. And then you say, I believe, and

let's make sure that that is, in fact, your

report.

A Okay.

MR. GERRAND: What's the question?

632 Q MR. BORDEN: I quote: "Information from

disclosures of victims interviewed previously

indicate the following children are victims

themselves or have been acting out sexually."

A Okay.

633 Q And then you give the name Trevor Klassen, son

of Peter Dale and Anita Klassen. Did you get

that from a disclosure as well, from the

children?

A That's right.

634 Q And was it the case with Jackie Klassen?

A That's right.

635 Q Travis Klassen?

A That's right.

636 Q And each and every other party mentioned on that

particular list?

A That's right.

637 Q Nine in number; is that correct?

A That's right.

638 Q What you're saying is that it appears that these

people are victims themselves?


120

A I would suggest that I would change that to they

could be possible victims because of their

activity with these children, or alleged

activity with these children.

639 Q But nevertheless, this is the document you gave

to the prosecutors; is that correct?

A That's right.

640 Q The second document -- and we're going to have

to spend some time because this is the package

you gave to the prosecutor -- is marked as

number 531(b). It's called a Continuation

Report. Just so it's easier for you and so we

don't have to pass it back and forth, I'm just

going to quote in the context of my question. I

quote here your words: "In December, 1989

Michael Ross was removed from the Peter Dale and

Anita Klassen foster home and placed in a parent

therapy home of Lyle and Marilyn Thompson of 120

Kenora Street, Warman, Saskatchewan." Kenora

spelled with a K. "Shortly after having moved

to the Thompson home Michael Ross began

disclosing sexual abuse by numerous people to

himself and to his sisters. These people

including his birth parents Donald and Helen

Ross, one Donald White, Peter Dale and Anita

Klassen, Peter Klassen, Senior, Pamela Klassen,


121

as well as numerous other people."

Would it be fair to say that it

was Michael, then, that first disclosed? And

that means as we look at Michelle Ross, Kathy

Ross and Michael Ross, that it was Michael that

first disclosed about sexual abuse?

A Yes.

641 Q Now it goes on to state, and I quote: "Because

of these disclosures the Department of Social

Services decided to remove the remaining foster

children from the Peter Dale and Anita Klassen

foster home and from Pamela Klassen's foster

home." Would you agree with that statement

today?

A That's right.

642 Q And so if I put it to you that, in fact, it was

Kathy Ross that disclosed before Michael, would

you say I'm wrong?

A No, I would suggest that's the information I was

given. Because those disclosures there didn't

come from my interviews they came from Social

Services.

643 Q Because the reason that the girls were actually

removed from the Dale and Anita Klassen home was

because of Michael's disclosures; is that not

correct?


122

A That's what I understand, yeah.

644 Q And you being the investigating officer, you

would know?

A Well, that's the information I was given.

645 Q Now, was this removal with your approval, did

they ask you before they removed Michelle and

Kathy from the Anita and Dale Klassen home

whether that was all right with you?

A No.

646 Q Social Services did this of their or its own

accord?

A I assume so.

647 Q It states: "This removal occurred on May 29th,

1990." Is that the best of your recollection?

A Yes.

648 Q Prior to Michelle and Kathy being removed to the

Thompson home were they under the care of Carol

Bunko-Ruys?

A I don't know.

649 Q So you have no idea?

A No idea.

650 Q And from your review of Exhibit P-1, it wouldn't

have helped?

A Well, you mentioned earlier that maybe I needed

to review it again and I agree with that. So I

haven't had the opportunity to do that.


123

651 Q I want to now talk to you generally before we

get into Exhibit P-1 and its many documents, the

matter of your previous investigation. You had

stipulated or stated this morning that there was

another investigation, is that correct, that you

were involved in, involving these same children?

A Another investigation?

652 Q Yes.

A Well, it was an offshoot that occurred after

Peter Klassen, Senior, pleaded guilty to another

case which at that time I had no knowledge of.

From that I interviewed four children, being

Crystal Morin and the three Ross children.

There were no disclosures at that time and it

was then left, and then it unfolded from there.

653 Q By the way, did you tell Matt that you had

already been involved -- I'm talking about Matt

Miazga, by the way -- had already been involved

in another investigation?

A I don't consider it another, I consider it a

continuation of this one.

654 Q What was the time frame for the other

investigation involving Crystal Heinrichs and

the three Ross children?

A Late 1989.

655 Q So it was late 1989; is that correct?


124

A Right.

656 Q Your testimony this morning was you had met

Michael for basically the first time at the Taco

Time --

A Right.

657 Q -- in Saskatoon.

A That's right. And that's what I corrected

earlier. That, in fact, I had met him in this

interview the first time in late '89. I had the

time right but the location was wrong.

658 Q And would it be fair to say that when you first

met him that he mentioned things about making

sure everything was safe and then he would have

a lot to tell about the Dale and Anita Klassen

home?

A No, that happened at the Taco Time.

659 Q All right. So this is extremely important

stuff, I have to go back and make sure we all

understand the time frame. We have the fall of

1989, you've met Michael for the first time; is

that correct?

A Right.

660 Q Michael doesn't disclose anything in the fall of

1989?

A That's right.

661 Q Indeed, he doesn't disclose anything until the


125

year 1990?

A That's right.

662 Q So in 1989 Michelle and Kathy meet with you?

A That's right.

663 Q And they don't disclose?

A That's right.

664 Q As a matter of fact, they say nothing at all

about anything happening sexually in the Kvello

or Klassen homes?

A That's right.

665 Q And how long did you spend with them in relation

to this particular investigation?

A Not very long, they were short interviews.

666 Q And Crystal Heinrichs, did she say anything

involving sexual abuse or anything of a sexual

nature in relation to the Kvello or Klassen

homes?

A In 1989?

667 Q Yes.

A No.

668 Q So that now you have had some knowledge of these

parties?

A M'hm.

669 Q You now know Michael and you know Michelle, you

know Kathy?

A Right.


126

670 Q And you know Crystal Heinrichs. And you,

obviously, were investigating something, so what

was that, in 1989?

A In 1989?

671 Q Yes.

A It was a result, because of Peter Klassen

pleading guilty to the charges of sexual assault

against two children, I believe it was the

Kehler (phonetic) girls, that had been

investigated by Sergeant Reid. There was a

concern by Social Services regarding other

children, or the children in these homes, and

those, I assume, were the homes that Peter

Klassen had access or contact with. Those

children were brought in for that first, initial

interview, there were no disclosures there. It

was then left. And I had no more contact with

Social Services or them until the spring of

1990.

672 Q Did you bring with you a copy of that occurrence

report, where you did the 1989 investigation?

A No, I did not. At that time -- and that was

policy -- there were many times when there was a

non-disclosure and nothing happened, there was

no report left.

673 Q Or there were many times where nothing had


127

happened so, therefore, no report was left?

A That's right.

674 Q If we go back to 1989, I just want to get some

backdrop to it. Who was it that contacted you

and asked you to meet with the four children?

A Well it was the social worker, and I really

don't recall which one it was. As I said

earlier there were many that were involved and I

can't remember which one.

675 Q Now is there anything that you can review in the

next week or so that might help you refresh your

memory as to who that person was. Do you have

any notes?

A No, I don't.

676 Q Someone was concerned that Peter Klassen had

been in jail and now he was out again; is that

correct?

A No, I think he had just pleaded guilty to the

first charges.

677 Q So, as far as you knew, he was in jail?

A I don't recall.

678 Q Do you recall what the specific concern was

regarding these four children?

A At that time?

679 Q Yes.

A The concern was the possible contact he had had


128

with them.

680 Q Fine. Now, as far as you know, in 1989, had any

one of those children, that being Michelle Ross,

Kathy Ross, Michael Ross or Crystal Heinrichs,

did anyone of them allege to the best of your

understanding that Peter had touched them?

A No.

681 Q So this was just a matter of making inquiries to

make sure everything was all right?

A I would say so, yes.

682 Q And someone from Social Services asked you to

make those inquiries, is that correct, as you

were with Youth Section?

A Brought the children in, that's right.

683 Q Now when you say they brought the children in,

that would mean that in 1989 these children were

being brought in even though they resided with

Dale and Anita Klassen?

A That's right.

684 Q Did you tell Dale and Anita Klassen that you

were interviewing children that were under their

charge?

A Did I tell them?

685 Q Yes.

A No.

686 Q Well what steps did you take to ensure that the


129

then foster parents knew that you were

interviewing the children?

A I would suggest, them being wards of the

province, that that would have been Social

Services's duty to do that.

687 Q So you assumed something?

A Right.

688 Q Now, did you ever determine whether or not they

had, in fact, contacted the Klassens?

A No.

689 Q I would like to take you to 1989. Did you ever

visit a school while the children were still in

the charge of, in the custody of, Dale and Anita

Klassen?

A I don't recall having done that.

690 Q Did you ever meet any principal or school

teacher at that time, in the year 1989?

A No. The only school teacher I recall is the one

in Warman when they had moved.

691 Q So to the best of your recollection you talked

to no school teacher?

A That's right.

692 Q Wasn't it your job to determine whether some-

thing had happened to these children?

A Certainly.

693 Q Right. So would part of the protocol of your


130

investigation be to show up at the school, find

out how things were at the school?

A Not necessarily.

694 Q Were you just leaving it to the one interview

you had with the children in order to determine

whether they were abused?

A That was what I was doing, yes. Social Services

was still involved with them.

695 Q At that point of time, where you became

involved, you knew by that time that disclosure

is a long and frustrating process, isn't it?

A That's right.

696 Q So you knew that disclosure would come not just

after one interview but it would come after

many?

A Not necessarily.

697 Q Were your interviewing techniques such in 1989

that you felt you could get disclosure in one

interview?

A No.

698 Q Why was it that you didn't follow up with the

children in 1989 to determine whether or not

they were, in fact, being sexually abused?

A Because they were wards, they were being looked

after by case workers for Social Services. It

was common practice, then, if children didn't


131

disclose that Social Services kept working with

them, if there were any indications that came

out of that -- and Social Services does school

visits -- if there was anything else that came

out of that that required police action, they

would be back in contact with us.

699 Q All right. So, then, one would only have to

presume that since they didn't get back to you

that there weren't any disclosures?

A That they didn't get back to me?

700 Q Yes.

A Well, until the spring, that's right.

701 Q But in the spring what was the first disclosure

made, then, and who made it?

A That was Michael at the Taco Time. Well, I

mean, obviously he disclosed something before

that but I don't know exactly what that

disclosure was.

702 Q So when you were now putting this file together

for Matt Miazga, did you tell Matt about this

1989 meeting with the four children?

A It's right on the top of the report that he got.

703 Q And did you also tell him that there weren't any

disclosures until Taco Time?

A Well, again, that's in the report.

704 Q So whatever is in the report is what you gave


132

him?

A That's right.

705 Q At Taco Time there wasn't any real disclosure,

was there, there was something said that if

things are safe I've got lots to say about Dale

and Anita Klassen; right?

A As I read it, "Once I'm safe I've got lots to

tell about sexual abuse," is his words.

706 Q Let me just read your words back to you. I

quote: "I only told enough to get my sister

safe. I've got lots more to tell you about

sexual abuse." That would be more akin to what

Michael said back in 1990; is that correct?

A That's right.

707 Q Now when he used those words, "I only told

enough to get my sister safe. I've got lots

more to tell you about sexual abuse," wouldn't

you say that he left out some key elements in

that statement? Sexual abuse with who? When

did you learn that he was really talking about

sexual abuse with, for instance, his natural

parents, was that at a later date?

A Yes, it was.

708 Q And then at a later date is it, then, that you

learned that he was talking about my clients,

the Klassens and the Kvellos?


133

A That's right.

709 Q And Richard Klassen?

A Right.

710 Q Now to just look at the time frame here, we have

Taco Time in 1990 now, and it's at Taco Time

that only Michael makes some reference to sexual

abuse?

A Right.

711 Q What day was that, that Michael met with you?

A I don't recall.

712 Q I'll let you just review your file just to see

if there's some reference to it there.

A June 14th, 1990.

713 Q So the first time, according to your under-

standing, that Michael started to talk was about

June 14th?

A No, he had talked previous to that, that's why I

was contacted. But he hadn't talked to me.

714 Q So he hadn't talked to you, that's why the girls

were removed May the 29th?

A Why they were removed? Obviously, he had

disclosed to someone else.

715 Q Okay. Now, in terms of that disclosure and as

part of your police work, what did you determine

Michael to have said to Social Services prior to

June 14th at Taco Time?


134

A I was told that he had disclosed that there was

sexual abuse going on in that foster home.

716 Q Which one?

A In the Dale and Anita Klassen foster home.

717 Q Well, that might tell us something about sexual

abuse going on there, but you would want to find

out with whom that sexual abuse was going on?

A That's right.

718 Q So who did you ask, then, on June 14th or

thereabouts as to what Michael was saying

earlier?

A I spoke to Lyle and Marilyn Thompson, also to

the social worker at that time.

719 Q Okay, fine. So the actual abuse, then, that's

being referred to would come from notes made by

the Thompsons, would it?

A By the Thompsons, by the social worker, whoever.

720 Q By the social worker. Did you get a copy of the

notes from the Thompsons?

A There were no notes from the Thompsons at that

time that I got. That was later on in the

process when Marilyn Thompson started bringing

these notes in.

721 Q So I'm talking now about June 14th, this is a

key day for you because, really, Michael is

starting to talk to you?


135

A That's right.

722 Q Before, in 1989, he didn't disclose a thing to

you?

A That's right.

723 Q Neither did his sisters, or Crystal. Now on

June 14th there's some disclosure and I'm sure

at that point of time you wanted to open up a

file?

A That's right.

724 Q And you did, you started an occurrence report?

A That's right.

725 Q Under an occurrence number?

A That's right.

726 Q Would that number have been around June the

14th, 1990?

A I assume so.

727 Q Okay. And so in relation to that file my

question is, did you find out from Social

Services exactly what Michael said happened in

the Anita and Dale Klassen home?

A No, I can't say I found out exactly. I found

out the generalities. I would prefer to have it

that way so that when I interviewed him I would

find out, hopefully, a pure version from him.

728 Q All right, that's fair. So you didn't have

anything of your own -- I mean, you wanted to


136

have everything of your own and let you decide

whether these are true representations of what

was going on?

A That's right.

729 Q That meant that you would have wanted to

interview Michael because he was the one now

talking and you would want to do that pretty

early in the game. When did you next interview

Michael Ross?

A I don't recall the exact day. It wasn't early

in the game, though, they were in therapy then

and it was left for a while before we

interviewed.

730 Q Your evidence this morning seemed to indicate

that the only interviews you had with Michael

were all taped in October-November?

A That's right.

731 Q Would it be fair to say that between June 14th

and October of the same year that you didn't

interview Michael?

A That's right.

732 Q Someone had been with Michael and with the

children in the meantime?

A Someone had been with them, that's right.

733 Q In terms of therapy and counselling?

A I'm assuming that, yes.

continued > > >