353 Q Now, did you ask any of the plaintiffs to
A Pictures of?
354 Q Right. I guess that's a good question, pictures
of what? Now you said in your evidence today
that some of the children mentioned pictures, so
taking it from the children, then, that there
were pictures, did you ask anyone of the
plaintiffs to produce family pictures or
pictures of the children?
355 Q Did you ask Dennis Kvello?
A No, I didn't ask any of them.
356 Q All right. As it relates to these pictures, did
any of the Klassens or Kvellos provide you with
pictures and simply say, well, look, you never
asked for these but here's a nice family scene
of the Ross children with us?
357 Q Prior to your going to Matt Miazga with
information did you see any other prosecutor?
A I believe when I first took the file to the
prosecutor's office I gave it to Terry Hinz.
358 Q Who is Terry Hinz?
A A prosecutor at the office here.
359 Q And at what period of time would you have gone
to Terry Hinz?
A It would have been at the end of April. When I
first took the file in it was given to Terry
360 Q So that would have been April of 1990?
361 Q All right. So you didn't deal with a prosecutor
at all in 1990; is that correct?
A No, I didn't.
362 Q Not once did you confer with any prosecutor?
363 Q Who was the first prosecutor you ever conferred
with regarding the case against the Kvellos and
Klassens, my clients?
A As I say, I took the file into the prosecutor's
office, this copy right here, and gave it to
Terry Hinz. Left it there for it to be reviewed
either by him or by someone else. And the next
contact I had was with Matt Miazga.
364 Q Now can you tell me, prior to your putting
together Exhibit P-1, did you receive the advice
of anyone in the Department of Justice,
including the prosecutors?
365 Q Prior to you presenting Exhibit P-1 to a
prosecutor, did you seek any advice from a
366 Q You presented, then, Exhibit P-1 to Terry Hinz,
a local Saskatoon prosecutor?
A As I recall, yes, I did.
367 Q Now, did you have a meeting with him precisely
to deal with what you had to give?
A My recollection of that is that I went to the
prosecutor's office, brought the file in, said
here's a file I've been working on. I believe
we had a short conversation regarding the file,
a short summary. I know he didn't read it while
I was there. It's a fairly thick file, as you
can see. And I left it with him, which was very
normal practice at that time, to leave the file
there, no different than today.
368 Q That was the protocol then, that if you were
interested in getting an opinion as to whether
charges should be laid, part of the protocol is
to meet with the prosecutor?
369 Q Now prior to your meeting with Terry Hinz in --
A I should qualify that, though. It's not always
necessary to meet with the prosecutor. Often it
was just the file was brought there, the
prosecutor you happen to talk to might not be
the one who reviewed the file or took it. No
different than today. Files are sent over today
regularly and when the investigator sends them
over they really have no idea of who is going to
370 Q Prior to your meeting with Terry Hinz in April
of 1991 did you meet with any other police
officer to review your file?
A No. I had a couple of different police officers
help me with different parts of the file, like
Sergeant Jim Walker. I recall Jim Walker
specifically, and certainly, he and I discussed
371 Q Prior to your coming here today and within the
last week, did you talk to Sergeant Jim Walker?
372 Q You never received a call from him, discussed
anything with him?
A Did I receive a call? Yeah, actually, I did, he
phoned and asked and said that you wanted to
meet with him, and I told him that was fine. He
was wondering what was happening, I said, well,
I'm going to examination for discovery and you
do what you have to do. Jim is retired, as
373 Q Yes.
A I believe it was within the last week. I
haven't really met or talked to Jim for probably
three months or four months.
374 Q So he phoned you because he had received a call
A That's right.
375 Q That was your understanding?
A That's right.
376 Q Prior to your coming here today, then, you
didn't get a chance to talk about any of his
particular work on the file?
377 Q Now, prior to your meeting with Terry Hinz, I
had asked you if you had been working with other
police officers. You had been working with
Sergeant Jim Walker, and then there was another
person that you had mentioned?
A No, I hadn't mentioned one, I was trying to
think. There were different policemen who did
different things for me in the file. The
searches out at Laird, the search at Donald
Ross's place were handled by -- I was at Laird,
some RCMP members helped me there and some of
our members. The search at Donald Ross's was
done by some of our other members from our Youth
Section. I don't recall specifically right now
who exactly did them.
378 Q Now I'm just going to confine your answers to
the Kvello and Klassen defendants, did you have
anyone assisting you from the police department
with those particular accused?
A Occasionally, the day of the arrest, certainly,
I had some people with me. There was no one
assigned to the file permanently. Certainly I'd
asked for that but it didn't happen, no one was
assigned permanently to the file. I know that
we looked at a lot of other people in the file,
trying to find other foster children, what have
you, we had great difficulty with that. And I
remember there were members who assisted with
some of that, but I don't recall who they were.
379 Q You had worked with Jim Walker, at least, he
helped with one or two interviews of the
children; is that correct?
A He was out at Red Deer with me.
380 Q He was at Red Deer with you?
A That's right.
381 Q For what purpose?
A When we interviewed Richard Klassen and Dale and
382 Q Did he interview any child?
A Did he?
383 Q Yes.
384 Q What about Mikey, Pam's little boy?
A Not that I'm aware of.
385 Q So you have no idea whether he interviewed that
child or not?
A I don't recall that, whether he did or not.
386 Q Did you interview Mikey?
A No, I didn't. I was aware that Social Services
had interviewed him but I'm not aware of any
police officer interviewing him.
387 Q Have you ever seen any reports from Jim Walker?
A From Jim Walker?
388 Q Regarding the Klassens and Kvellos?
389 Q Did you attach any documents from other police
officers to Exhibit P-1?
390 Q I guess P-1 reads for itself, speaks for itself.
A This is the police occurrence report. Certainly
there are other documents, as I said before, Dr.
Yelland's reports, I obtained some medical
reports from University Hospital, the Alvin
Buckwold Centre, for Matt Miazga later, but even
those reports, I didn't review them, I obtained
them for him, took them to the prosecutor's
391 Q You had brought your file, Exhibit P-1, in to
Terry Hinz and at that particular time did Terry
Hinz say he would look at the file?
A I believe he did, I don't recall specifically.
I remember having a short conversation, a brief
review of the file, or an overview. Left it
there, hadn't heard back for over a month,
phoned down to find out what was happening and I
don't recall who I talked to that day. And the
next contact I had was with Matt Miazga saying
he had the file and to come in and talk to him.
392 Q All right. So did you have a little eyeball-to-
eyeball talk with Terry Hinz regarding this
A No, I did not.
393 Q Did he ever express to you an opinion regarding
394 Q Did he ever say to you, sir, you shouldn't lay
charges with this kind of evidence?
395 Q Did he tell you you're on the wrong track?
396 Q Did Terry Hinz ever have a conversation with you
prior to your meeting Matt Miazga?
A The brief conversation we had when I dropped the
file off, as I indicated, where I gave him a
brief overview of the file. He didn't read it
at that time, I left the file there and waited
for a response.
397 Q Now, since the response wasn't coming you waited
till May of 1991?
A Sometime in May, early June, and phoned back to
see what was happening.
398 Q All right. Was it at that time that someone
said you better speak with a Mr. Matt Miazga
regarding this file?
A No, actually, they didn't. As I recall I left a
message to find out what was happening with the
file, and Matt Miazga called me.
399 Q Now at what point of time were charges actually
A After Matt and Sonja reviewed the file, I
believe there were a couple of other things they
wanted, as I indicated, the records from the
Alvin Buckwold Centre where the children had
been for therapy at an earlier time. I believe
the medical report from Dr. Yelland, and there
was also some follow-up to do on a few of the
other complainants in this file, to see whether
they would come forward.
400 Q Have you ever seen a criminal record relating to
a Marie Klassen?
A No. You asked that earlier.
401 Q No, but have you ever seen a criminal record
relating to a Marie Klassen?
402 Q Not necessarily the plaintiff in this case and
not necessarily the accused, Marie Klassen.
Have you ever seen in your file a criminal
record relating to a Marie Klassen?
A Not that I recall, no.
403 Q Did you ever see a criminal record in your file
relating to a Peter Klassen?
A Yes, I checked on Peter Klassen's criminal
404 Q Did you first determine, before you even started
this investigation, that Peter Klassen may have
been convicted of sexual abuse of children at
A Yes, I was aware of that.
405 Q Now, I don't want to be unfair here. I asked
you whether, before you started this
A Before I started it, no, of course I wouldn't
have checked on Peter Klassen before I started
it. It would have been after the disclosures
were made and it was alleged that he was
involved. I mean that was part of the
406 Q According to your evidence you first met Michael
with the Thompsons in the late fall of 1989 at
407 Q Prior to that you wouldn't have had any need to,
then, determine whether Peter Klassen had a
A I had no idea who was involved at that time.
408 Q Had you even heard the name Peter Klassen before
you met Michael?
A Not that I recall, no.
409 Q You were already in the Youth Division, but you
didn't know Peter Klassen?
A No. Oh, gosh, we had 100 files going through
there, I had no idea. I had never investigated
a file involving him.
410 Q Did you know any of the Klassens before you
talked to Michael in the fall of 1989?
A No. As I indicated earlier.
411 Q Before you went to see Terry Hinz did you find
out what particular records Social Services had
on each one of the foster parents? Let me give
you an example, on Dennis Kvello, whether he was
a fit foster parent, did you go and determine
whether or not Dennis Kvello had any blemishes
on his record as a foster parent?
A No. I would believe that Social Services would
have brought a concern forward, or he wouldn't
have been a foster parent had there been a
412 Q Right. And you knew him to be a foster parent?
A Certainly, that was the information or
indication we were given, yes.
413 Q Did you also know that Diane Kvello, his wife,
was a foster parent?
414 Q And so according to your understanding, working
with the Youth Section, if there was a blemish
it would be brought forward by the Department of
415 Q So you presumed that there wasn't any blemishes
against them because they had, in fact, fostered
A That's right.
416 Q All right. So did you determine whether or not
Dennis Kvello and Diane Kvello had criminal
A Probably somewhere in the investigation I
certainly checked that. I don't recall
specifically doing that, but I'm sure I would
have checked for that.
417 Q So you know that they had, I'm presuming, no
blemish on their record with the Department of
Social Services; no criminal record?
418 Q Now Michael makes allegations against Diane and
419 Q So what did you do to follow up with those
allegations made by Michael as it relates to
those two adults?
A What did I do to follow up?
420 Q Yeah.
A You are aware that we had them in for an
421 Q Yes.
A You accompanied them.
422 Q Yes. Was I there for the whole interview?
A I don't recall if you were, Mr. Borden, but I
remember that you did bring them in, and I
interviewed them briefly.
423 Q Did you interview them briefly?
424 Q All right, if I can just stop you there. So now
you have two people, Dennis and Diane Kvello,
and there's no blemishes against them, no
criminal record, as far as you can recollect,
and you interviewed them. Now was there
something in that interview that told you they
did it, did they make a confession?
425 Q Did they admit to it?
426 Q And up to the point of the interview did you
have any physical evidence that would prove
that, in fact, they had sexual relations with
either one of these children?
A Physical evidence that they, specifically?
427 Q Yes.
A There was physical evidence that the children
had been sexually abused.
428 Q Yes. Was there any evidence that Dennis Kvello
had sexual abuse [sic] with the children, other
than the utterances of the children?
A Other than the utterances of the children, no.
429 Q All right. Now, do you recall in relation to
Dennis Kvello whether there was anything
specifically said about him, about, let's say,
Dennis's own physical features? Did Michael say
that Dennis was a big man?
A I don't recall. Again, it would be in those
transcripts of the tapes.
430 Q And again, if you had asked the question it
would be in the transcripts of the tapes?
431 Q Do you remember at any time, in even one of the
short meetings at Taco Time or up in the coffee
shop at the police station, that Michael would
have described Dennis Kvello?
A Michael was never in the coffee shop at the
police station, so I'm not sure what you're
referring to there.
432 Q Well, I may be mistaken, I thought that there
was a little place somewhere in the police
station where you could go and get a drink or --
A No, we would take them across to Mulberry's, if
that's what you're referring to. No, I don't
recall him ever -- I don't recall. As I say,
once those interviews were done I was very
careful not to be questioning them because I
wanted whatever evidence there was to be on
433 Q Right. And then you would just present it to
the prosecutors and I think the bottom line here
is they would decide whether charges would be
laid, not you?
A That's right.
434 Q Because you're just the investigating officer?
A I guess so, yeah.
435 Q Okay. So now if we could just go back, then, to
Dennis Kvello. When Michael described a Dennis
Kvello for the first time, did you have any idea
who this person was?
436 Q Did you go out and get a picture of him or did
you put him in a line-up?
A No, I don't think so.
437 Q Did you go and meet him, other than this brief
meeting that you said you had through me, was
there any time that you actually met with him?
438 Q Did you have any conversations by telephone with
Mr. Dennis Kvello?
A I might have, to call him in for the interview,
but I don't recall that.
439 Q And prior to you walking in with the information
to Mr. Terry Hinz had you interviewed Mr.
440 Q And prior to your going into Matt's office to
talk to him about this file, of course, you had
already interviewed Dennis Kvello?
441 Q Was there a point of time when Matt Miazga said,
well, as it relates to Dennis Kvello maybe you
should just go and get something else?
A Get something else?
442 Q Anything. Anything.
A What are we talking about here?
443 Q Well, right, what are we talking about? Did
Matt Miazga ask you as the investigating officer
to go and get something else. All you had was
Exhibit P-1 and some video tapes so far?
444 Q Did Matt Miazga say to you, sir, I need A, B or
C, whatever that might be?
A I don't recall that, no.
445 Q Did he make any special requests of you as it
relates to Dennis Kvello, to get any other
A I don't recall. I know that we went and
interviewed the neighbours of the Kvellos,
across the road. We interviewed some children
that had been in there, not in a foster
situation but had been in there in a child care
situation. I took a statement, as you're aware,
from a neighbour across the street, from John
Grunow (phonetic) who talked about the pictures
of Anita. Other than that, I don't recall
anything that I was sent out to get on Dennis
446 Q So anything that you had in relation to Dennis
Kvello when you first knew Matt was involved
would have been Exhibit P-1 and the video tapes?
447 Q And if there was an interview with a neighbour
that may or may not have been contained in
A It may not have been.
448 Q And if there was an interview with one of the
employees or employers of any of these defend-
ants, that may not have been in Exhibit P-1?
449 Q John Grunow, did he say anything, as you can
recollect, about Dennis Kvello?
A Not that I recollect, no.
450 Q Did he say anything about Diane Kvello?
A He talked about the pictures that Sheldon had
shown him in the statement that he gave.
451 Q Sure, but I asked you whether or not he said
anything about Diane Kvello?
A What are we referring to, the fact that these
pictures were there, the fact that Sheldon
indicated he got them from his mother, or are we
talking about sexual activity?
452 Q Anything.
A Well, again, there's a written statement in the
disclosure that says exactly what John Grunow
453 Q Sure.
A And he talked about nude pictures of Anita
Klassen that Sheldon Kvello had shown him, and I
believe, I'm not totally certain, I don't recall
the whole statement right now, that Sheldon had
indicated that he'd gotten it from his mother,
or something, and that later there had been a
meeting with Grunow's mother and Dennis and
Diane and the boys regarding this, that they'd
been discovered or something. I mean it's all
in that written statement.
454 Q It's all in the written statement from John
A Right. Regarding any sexual abuse, sexual
455 Q So all you had, then, was pictures of Anita?
A That was John Grunow's statement, yes.
456 Q No pictures of Diane?
457 Q No pictures of Dennis?
458 Q How old was Sheldon Kvello at that period of
A I don't recall.
459 Q Was he under the age of 18?
A If I can look in the report I can tell you.
460 Q Sure.
A Born in 1973, so 19 -- or 17, I should say.
461 Q So still a young person, still under the age of
18. Did you have any concerns about Sheldon
being involved in some kind of immoral behaviour
involving his parents and his aunt?
A I'm not sure what -- which aunt, what are you --
462 Q How about Anita, then, those pictures of her,
were you concerned about that?
A Well, no. I'm just not following it. No, I had
no concerns there. I had disclosures about
activity that he had had with the children,
sexual activity with the children, that was a
463 Q "He" meaning?
464 Q Yes.
A There was disclosure there about sexual activity
with the children.
465 Q Right.
A But other than that, I'm not sure.
466 Q You didn't think he was the victim of something
involving his parents, his own parents, Diane
A I think that's always a possibility with anyone,
you know, that's accused of offending, that they
could be a victim.
467 Q Yeah, right. But you never saw any evidence of
it, did you?
468 Q Did you ever ask for, for instance, medical
records relating to Sheldon and Sherry Kvello?
A I don't believe so.
469 Q These were young people and, you know, there's
always the possibility, you said, that they may
have been abused by their parents if there's any
allegation of sexual abuse out there.
470 Q Did you think it would be necessary, therefore,
to see if Sherry Kvello may have been abused at
A I believe that was done by Social Services, that
471 Q And what did you determine?
A I didn't determine anything. As I said, I
believe Social Services did something in regards
472 Q Did you see anything before you went in to see
Matt Miazga to determine what they had found out
A I don't recall whether it was before I saw Matt
473 Q Because, you know, when you're trying to
determine whether charges would be laid,
wouldn't the prosecutor like to know what
medical reports there are on any party?
A Well, when you say "any party," I mean what are
we talking here? Are you talking those that are
474 Q How about some of the accused?
A I guess that would be up to the prosecutor to
ask for that.
475 Q Okay, not you as the investigating officer?
476 Q Did Matt Miazga ever ask you to determine the
medical status or condition of a Sherry Kvello?
A Not that I recall.
477 Q Did he ever ask you to determine the medical
status of any of the other children that may
have been charged in this particular matter?
A That were charged?
478 Q Yes.
A Not that I recall.
479 Q He never invited you to go out and ask for
480 Q There were two seminars that you went to, and
one was put on by the Department of Social
Services and then the second one was probably an
independent seminar put on by somebody?
481 Q Who was that somebody?
A I don't recall. As I said earlier, it was a
group in town, Colin Clay was involved in it, if
you remember him, Liz Newton, there were others,
I don't recall who they were.
482 Q So Liz Newton may have been affiliated with
Colin Clay at this time?
A I believe she probably was.
483 Q And they had a little organization, do you know
the name of that organization?
A I don't, as I said three times now, I don't
484 Q But you think that they would have put on a
seminar. And why did you think it would be
necessary that you would go to a seminar put on
by a Colin Clay or a Liz Newton?
A I believe that was the seminar that Dr. Jon
Conte came to, it related to ritualistic abuse
of children. I was interested in that, I wanted
to see what that was about.
485 Q Well, in your evidence already, and I don't mean
to cross-examine you on this, but just to make
it clear, you said that, you know, ritual abuse
of children, sexual abuse of children are two
different things. You can have sexual abuse
without ritualistic behaviour?
486 Q Why was it so necessary that you would want to
attend at some of these seminars involving
ritual sexual behaviour?
A It was an education.
487 Q Had you worked on other cases involving this
A I don't recall whether I'd ever had any
allegations that involved that, no.
488 Q Well working for the Youth Section to that
point, maybe you had worked there for about a
year. Had you known of any other charges of
ritual sexual abuse in Saskatoon?
A There had been some files that others had worked
on that indicate some of that.
489 Q Did those culminate in charges being laid
A I don't believe so.
490 Q For instance, in the City of Saskatoon can you
think of any accused that was charged with
ritual sexual --
A There is no such charge.
491 Q Right.
A It's sexual abuse.
492 Q Sexual abuse, then, involving ritual or satanic
A I'm not aware of any. I don't know.
493 Q So you can't think of one. And when you were
investigating the Klassen and Kvello matter, did
you think that it had some of the attributes of
ritual or satanic behaviour, based on these two
seminars you went to?
494 Q All right. And as it relates to the Rosses, and
we're talking about the natural parents, did you
think there was an element there of sexual or
A Well, again, satanic abuse. There was sexual
abuse there, certainly. Certainly, these
children had been subjected to something, in my
opinion, that would indicate some type of
rituals or that sort of thing, I mean they
disclosed that. But as far as the actual
charges, the charges are sexual abuse.
495 Q Yes, there's no doubt about that. There's no
doubt about it. So what you're saying is that
you came away from those two seminars with some
information that was helpful to your job and
your position as a member of the Youth Section?
A I believe so. That's why I went.
496 Q Yes. When you were investigating them further,
Michelle and Kathy and Michael, was there a time
when you thought, well, we know there's sexual
abuse here, but as it relates to Diane and
Dennis Kvello there's an element of maybe the
satanic or ritual behaviour?
A I don't recall ever having thought that.
497 Q And as it relates to Sheldon and Sherry, was
there an element, ever, in all of your
investigations, of the ritual or satanic element
that may be associated with sexual abuse of
A I don't recall that either.
498 Q There were reports that you wanted to get from
Alvin Buckwold and the medical reports from Dr.
Yelland, those are the things Matt had you
actually go out and do; is that right?
499 Q Did Matt also have you go out and get other
reports regarding Michael or Michelle or Kathy,
A Those are the medical reports. We were aware
that through Social Services they had been at
Alvin Buckwold for treatment years earlier and I
believe back even when they were in their birth
500 Q Did you secure those reports?
A Yes, we did.
501 Q Did you get involved in any disclosure to
defence counsel as it led up to the preliminary
hearing, were you involved in seeing that
defence counsel received any disclosure?
A It's all done through the prosecutor's office.
502 Q Not through you at all, is it?
A No. I mean the prosecutor would ask for
anything that we had and we're aware that we
have to disclose.
503 Q So I just want to sum up here, then, basically,
what you would have before charges were laid.
You had Exhibit P-1, you had the video tapes?
504 Q Then you also had medical reports from Dr.
Yelland, medical reports from Alvin Buckwold;
A I don't believe we had the medical reports from
Alvin Buckwold before the charges were laid. I
know we had the ones from Yelland but I don't
believe we had the ones from Alvin Buckwold
before. The Alvin Buckwold one, as you
understand, too, is not physical medical
reports, those are psychological testing that
the children went through.
505 Q Yes. So prior to your laying charges against
any of my clients did you, in fact, go to Alvin
Buckwold and try to secure some of these
A I don't think so. I think it was after the
charges were laid.
506 Q When did you first realize that there may be a
psychiatric report in relation to Michael on
file somewhere, some place?
A I don't recall the date.
507 Q But it was after the charges were laid that you
recognize that there was a psychiatric report?
A That's when I went to secure them, yes.
508 Q So Matt Miazga hadn't told you till after the
charges were laid that he knew about the
A I don't recall that at all.
509 Q Did you ever see a report that said Michael was
a liar in a psychiatric way, he had a psychotic
510 Q You never saw that?
511 Q Did you ever have any idea of that before
charges were laid that some other people who
were professionals recognized that Michael was
the kind of person that could lie, did lie?
A No, I wasn't aware of that.
512 Q Did you ever see the phrase "psychotic liar"?
513 Q Did you ever go out to a school, before the
charges were laid, and talk to any of the
principals or school teachers at Michael's
A Yeah, we did, in Warman.
514 Q That was before the charges were laid?
A That's right.
515 Q Now did a particular principal tell you at that
time look, you can't believe Michael?
A No, I don't recall that at all.
516 Q Now, did you make any notes of that conversation
with that particular principal?
A I don't believe so.
517 Q And did you remember or bring with you today the
name of that principal?
A John Reddekopp.
518 Q All right. So John Reddekopp is the one, and he
said to you nothing about whether or not Michael
was a liar?
A I don't recall that. I mean, certainly, the
Thompsons indicated at times that Michael lied
519 Q Okay. So the Thompsons did. Now let's talk
about John Reddekopp.
A Well, as I said, I don't recall him saying
anything about Michael lying.
520 Q But before charges were laid you talked to John
521 Q Now what school teachers did you talk to before
charges were laid? Before charges were laid
what school teacher did you talk to?
A I think the only person I talked to was the
principal, John Reddekopp.
522 Q And before charges were laid did you know that
Michael Ross had abused other children?
A That was the allegation, yes.
523 Q Okay. So there were allegations of abuse by
Michael of other children, prior to your going
in to see Terry Hinz. Did you let Terry Hinz
know that you had already received allegations
of abuse of Michael Ross on other children?
A Well I think a lot of that was in the tapes, but
I don't think I verbally said that to Terry.
524 Q When you talked to John Reddekopp, the principal
of the school, did John tell you that, in fact,
Michael had abused in some way other children in
A I believe that's why I was there.
525 Q And did you mark that down and did you give that
to Mr. Miazga prior to your showing up at his
A I'm not sure. I know that the allegations were
in the tapes of Michael having -- Marilyn
Thompson's notes, for instance, indicated some
of those things, that Michael had disclosed that
to her; those were all given to the prosecutor.
526 Q But surely, in terms of the Thompson notes,
Superintendent Dueck, it didn't talk about all
the children that might have been abused at the
school, did it?
A I have no idea.
527 Q And did you not tell Matt Miazga that you had a
talk with John Reddekopp about the names of
other people that were abused by Michael?
A I don't recall. Gosh, we're talking 12 years
528 Q Sure, that's fine. But you do have P-1, which
you've had a chance to review, is there anything
in there, and I guess we'll just have to look,
about your talk with John Reddekopp?
A I don't recall.
529 Q Did John Reddekopp tell you that Michael was
abusing even one child in that school?
A I believe he told me that there was an
allegation of that, yes.
530 Q Now do you recall how many children Michael may
have abused in that school?
531 Q And did you actually see to it that those
incidents were investigated by yourself or other
A I believe that was an RCMP jurisdiction and
Social Services was involved with that, along
with the Thompsons.
532 Q And who was the RCMP officer that you spoke with
regarding these allegations?
A I'm not sure I spoke to anyone.
533 Q How would it be that any of these allegations
would be investigated if you didn't speak to an
A Well, because Social Services would have started
an investigation and would have gone to them.
534 Q Is it correct, then, that you would have gone
back to Social Services and told them what you
had learned from Dr. -- I say Dr. Reddekopp, I
should say John Reddekopp?
A I believe Social Services actually indicated
that to me, that that's where the information
came from, that they were aware of it.
535 Q Did you follow up with that to determine whether
there was any truth to these allegations?
A As I said, that was an RCMP jurisdiction there
and Social Services, they had case workers
assigned to these children out there and that
was their thing to do.
536 Q And that's fine. But now you're walking into
Matt Miazga's office and you know this
prosecutor has to know everything that you know
about the case. I gather from you that you
didn't even make an inquiry as to whether or not
these allegations of Michael abusing other
children were true, before you walked into Mr.
A I had no reason to doubt that they weren't true.
Michael was very sexually active.
537 Q All right. So at least you believed them to be