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Brian Dueck's examination (3)


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353 Q Now, did you ask any of the plaintiffs to

present pictures?

A Pictures of?

354 Q Right. I guess that's a good question, pictures

of what? Now you said in your evidence today

that some of the children mentioned pictures, so

taking it from the children, then, that there

were pictures, did you ask anyone of the

plaintiffs to produce family pictures or

pictures of the children?

A No.

355 Q Did you ask Dennis Kvello?

A No, I didn't ask any of them.

356 Q All right. As it relates to these pictures, did

any of the Klassens or Kvellos provide you with

pictures and simply say, well, look, you never

asked for these but here's a nice family scene

of the Ross children with us?

A No.

357 Q Prior to your going to Matt Miazga with

information did you see any other prosecutor?

A I believe when I first took the file to the

prosecutor's office I gave it to Terry Hinz.

358 Q Who is Terry Hinz?

A A prosecutor at the office here.


69

359 Q And at what period of time would you have gone

to Terry Hinz?

A It would have been at the end of April. When I

first took the file in it was given to Terry

Hinz.

360 Q So that would have been April of 1990?

A One.

361 Q All right. So you didn't deal with a prosecutor

at all in 1990; is that correct?

A No, I didn't.

362 Q Not once did you confer with any prosecutor?

A No.

363 Q Who was the first prosecutor you ever conferred

with regarding the case against the Kvellos and

Klassens, my clients?

A As I say, I took the file into the prosecutor's

office, this copy right here, and gave it to

Terry Hinz. Left it there for it to be reviewed

either by him or by someone else. And the next

contact I had was with Matt Miazga.

364 Q Now can you tell me, prior to your putting

together Exhibit P-1, did you receive the advice

of anyone in the Department of Justice,

including the prosecutors?

A No.

365 Q Prior to you presenting Exhibit P-1 to a


70

prosecutor, did you seek any advice from a

lawyer?

A No.

366 Q You presented, then, Exhibit P-1 to Terry Hinz,

a local Saskatoon prosecutor?

A As I recall, yes, I did.

367 Q Now, did you have a meeting with him precisely

to deal with what you had to give?

A My recollection of that is that I went to the

prosecutor's office, brought the file in, said

here's a file I've been working on. I believe

we had a short conversation regarding the file,

a short summary. I know he didn't read it while

I was there. It's a fairly thick file, as you

can see. And I left it with him, which was very

normal practice at that time, to leave the file

there, no different than today.

368 Q That was the protocol then, that if you were

interested in getting an opinion as to whether

charges should be laid, part of the protocol is

to meet with the prosecutor?

A Right.

369 Q Now prior to your meeting with Terry Hinz in --

A I should qualify that, though. It's not always

necessary to meet with the prosecutor. Often it

was just the file was brought there, the


71

prosecutor you happen to talk to might not be

the one who reviewed the file or took it. No

different than today. Files are sent over today

regularly and when the investigator sends them

over they really have no idea of who is going to

get them.

370 Q Prior to your meeting with Terry Hinz in April

of 1991 did you meet with any other police

officer to review your file?

A No. I had a couple of different police officers

help me with different parts of the file, like

Sergeant Jim Walker. I recall Jim Walker

specifically, and certainly, he and I discussed

the file.

371 Q Prior to your coming here today and within the

last week, did you talk to Sergeant Jim Walker?

A No.

372 Q You never received a call from him, discussed

anything with him?

A Did I receive a call? Yeah, actually, I did, he

phoned and asked and said that you wanted to

meet with him, and I told him that was fine. He

was wondering what was happening, I said, well,

I'm going to examination for discovery and you

do what you have to do. Jim is retired, as

you're aware.


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373 Q Yes.

A I believe it was within the last week. I

haven't really met or talked to Jim for probably

three months or four months.

374 Q So he phoned you because he had received a call

from me?

A That's right.

375 Q That was your understanding?

A That's right.

376 Q Prior to your coming here today, then, you

didn't get a chance to talk about any of his

particular work on the file?

A No.

377 Q Now, prior to your meeting with Terry Hinz, I

had asked you if you had been working with other

police officers. You had been working with

Sergeant Jim Walker, and then there was another

person that you had mentioned?

A No, I hadn't mentioned one, I was trying to

think. There were different policemen who did

different things for me in the file. The

searches out at Laird, the search at Donald

Ross's place were handled by -- I was at Laird,

some RCMP members helped me there and some of

our members. The search at Donald Ross's was

done by some of our other members from our Youth


73

Section. I don't recall specifically right now

who exactly did them.

378 Q Now I'm just going to confine your answers to

the Kvello and Klassen defendants, did you have

anyone assisting you from the police department

with those particular accused?

A Occasionally, the day of the arrest, certainly,

I had some people with me. There was no one

assigned to the file permanently. Certainly I'd

asked for that but it didn't happen, no one was

assigned permanently to the file. I know that

we looked at a lot of other people in the file,

trying to find other foster children, what have

you, we had great difficulty with that. And I

remember there were members who assisted with

some of that, but I don't recall who they were.

379 Q You had worked with Jim Walker, at least, he

helped with one or two interviews of the

children; is that correct?

A He was out at Red Deer with me.

380 Q He was at Red Deer with you?

A That's right.

381 Q For what purpose?

A When we interviewed Richard Klassen and Dale and

Anita.

382 Q Did he interview any child?


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A Did he?

383 Q Yes.

A No.

384 Q What about Mikey, Pam's little boy?

A Not that I'm aware of.

385 Q So you have no idea whether he interviewed that

child or not?

A I don't recall that, whether he did or not.

386 Q Did you interview Mikey?

A No, I didn't. I was aware that Social Services

had interviewed him but I'm not aware of any

police officer interviewing him.

387 Q Have you ever seen any reports from Jim Walker?

A From Jim Walker?

388 Q Regarding the Klassens and Kvellos?

A No.

389 Q Did you attach any documents from other police

officers to Exhibit P-1?

A No.

390 Q I guess P-1 reads for itself, speaks for itself.

A This is the police occurrence report. Certainly

there are other documents, as I said before, Dr.

Yelland's reports, I obtained some medical

reports from University Hospital, the Alvin

Buckwold Centre, for Matt Miazga later, but even

those reports, I didn't review them, I obtained


75

them for him, took them to the prosecutor's

office.

391 Q You had brought your file, Exhibit P-1, in to

Terry Hinz and at that particular time did Terry

Hinz say he would look at the file?

A I believe he did, I don't recall specifically.

I remember having a short conversation, a brief

review of the file, or an overview. Left it

there, hadn't heard back for over a month,

phoned down to find out what was happening and I

don't recall who I talked to that day. And the

next contact I had was with Matt Miazga saying

he had the file and to come in and talk to him.

392 Q All right. So did you have a little eyeball-to-

eyeball talk with Terry Hinz regarding this

file?

A No, I did not.

393 Q Did he ever express to you an opinion regarding

this file?

A No.

394 Q Did he ever say to you, sir, you shouldn't lay

charges with this kind of evidence?

A No.

395 Q Did he tell you you're on the wrong track?

A No.

396 Q Did Terry Hinz ever have a conversation with you


76

prior to your meeting Matt Miazga?

A The brief conversation we had when I dropped the

file off, as I indicated, where I gave him a

brief overview of the file. He didn't read it

at that time, I left the file there and waited

for a response.

397 Q Now, since the response wasn't coming you waited

till May of 1991?

A Sometime in May, early June, and phoned back to

see what was happening.

398 Q All right. Was it at that time that someone

said you better speak with a Mr. Matt Miazga

regarding this file?

A No, actually, they didn't. As I recall I left a

message to find out what was happening with the

file, and Matt Miazga called me.

399 Q Now at what point of time were charges actually

instituted?

A After Matt and Sonja reviewed the file, I

believe there were a couple of other things they

wanted, as I indicated, the records from the

Alvin Buckwold Centre where the children had

been for therapy at an earlier time. I believe

the medical report from Dr. Yelland, and there

was also some follow-up to do on a few of the

other complainants in this file, to see whether


77

they would come forward.

400 Q Have you ever seen a criminal record relating to

a Marie Klassen?

A No. You asked that earlier.

401 Q No, but have you ever seen a criminal record

relating to a Marie Klassen?

A No.

402 Q Not necessarily the plaintiff in this case and

not necessarily the accused, Marie Klassen.

Have you ever seen in your file a criminal

record relating to a Marie Klassen?

A Not that I recall, no.

403 Q Did you ever see a criminal record in your file

relating to a Peter Klassen?

A Yes, I checked on Peter Klassen's criminal

record.

404 Q Did you first determine, before you even started

this investigation, that Peter Klassen may have

been convicted of sexual abuse of children at

one time?

A Yes, I was aware of that.

405 Q Now, I don't want to be unfair here. I asked

you whether, before you started this

investigation --

A Before I started it, no, of course I wouldn't

have checked on Peter Klassen before I started


78

it. It would have been after the disclosures

were made and it was alleged that he was

involved. I mean that was part of the

investigation.

406 Q According to your evidence you first met Michael

with the Thompsons in the late fall of 1989 at

Taco Time?

A Right.

407 Q Prior to that you wouldn't have had any need to,

then, determine whether Peter Klassen had a

record?

A I had no idea who was involved at that time.

408 Q Had you even heard the name Peter Klassen before

you met Michael?

A Not that I recall, no.

409 Q You were already in the Youth Division, but you

didn't know Peter Klassen?

A No. Oh, gosh, we had 100 files going through

there, I had no idea. I had never investigated

a file involving him.

410 Q Did you know any of the Klassens before you

talked to Michael in the fall of 1989?

A No. As I indicated earlier.

411 Q Before you went to see Terry Hinz did you find

out what particular records Social Services had

on each one of the foster parents? Let me give


79

you an example, on Dennis Kvello, whether he was

a fit foster parent, did you go and determine

whether or not Dennis Kvello had any blemishes

on his record as a foster parent?

A No. I would believe that Social Services would

have brought a concern forward, or he wouldn't

have been a foster parent had there been a

blemish, obviously.

412 Q Right. And you knew him to be a foster parent?

A Certainly, that was the information or

indication we were given, yes.

413 Q Did you also know that Diane Kvello, his wife,

was a foster parent?

A Right.

414 Q And so according to your understanding, working

with the Youth Section, if there was a blemish

it would be brought forward by the Department of

Social Services?

A Absolutely.

415 Q So you presumed that there wasn't any blemishes

against them because they had, in fact, fostered

children?

A That's right.

416 Q All right. So did you determine whether or not

Dennis Kvello and Diane Kvello had criminal

records?


80

A Probably somewhere in the investigation I

certainly checked that. I don't recall

specifically doing that, but I'm sure I would

have checked for that.

417 Q So you know that they had, I'm presuming, no

blemish on their record with the Department of

Social Services; no criminal record?

A Right.

418 Q Now Michael makes allegations against Diane and

Dennis Kvello?

A Right.

419 Q So what did you do to follow up with those

allegations made by Michael as it relates to

those two adults?

A What did I do to follow up?

420 Q Yeah.

A You are aware that we had them in for an

interview.

421 Q Yes.

A You accompanied them.

422 Q Yes. Was I there for the whole interview?

A I don't recall if you were, Mr. Borden, but I

remember that you did bring them in, and I

interviewed them briefly.

423 Q Did you interview them briefly?

A Yes.


81

424 Q All right, if I can just stop you there. So now

you have two people, Dennis and Diane Kvello,

and there's no blemishes against them, no

criminal record, as far as you can recollect,

and you interviewed them. Now was there

something in that interview that told you they

did it, did they make a confession?

A No.

425 Q Did they admit to it?

A No.

426 Q And up to the point of the interview did you

have any physical evidence that would prove

that, in fact, they had sexual relations with

either one of these children?

A Physical evidence that they, specifically?

427 Q Yes.

A There was physical evidence that the children

had been sexually abused.

428 Q Yes. Was there any evidence that Dennis Kvello

had sexual abuse [sic] with the children, other

than the utterances of the children?

A Other than the utterances of the children, no.

429 Q All right. Now, do you recall in relation to

Dennis Kvello whether there was anything

specifically said about him, about, let's say,

Dennis's own physical features? Did Michael say


82

that Dennis was a big man?

A I don't recall. Again, it would be in those

transcripts of the tapes.

430 Q And again, if you had asked the question it

would be in the transcripts of the tapes?

A Right.

431 Q Do you remember at any time, in even one of the

short meetings at Taco Time or up in the coffee

shop at the police station, that Michael would

have described Dennis Kvello?

A Michael was never in the coffee shop at the

police station, so I'm not sure what you're

referring to there.

432 Q Well, I may be mistaken, I thought that there

was a little place somewhere in the police

station where you could go and get a drink or --

A No, we would take them across to Mulberry's, if

that's what you're referring to. No, I don't

recall him ever -- I don't recall. As I say,

once those interviews were done I was very

careful not to be questioning them because I

wanted whatever evidence there was to be on

those tapes.

433 Q Right. And then you would just present it to

the prosecutors and I think the bottom line here

is they would decide whether charges would be


83

laid, not you?

A That's right.

434 Q Because you're just the investigating officer?

A I guess so, yeah.

435 Q Okay. So now if we could just go back, then, to

Dennis Kvello. When Michael described a Dennis

Kvello for the first time, did you have any idea

who this person was?

A No.

436 Q Did you go out and get a picture of him or did

you put him in a line-up?

A No, I don't think so.

437 Q Did you go and meet him, other than this brief

meeting that you said you had through me, was

there any time that you actually met with him?

A No.

438 Q Did you have any conversations by telephone with

Mr. Dennis Kvello?

A I might have, to call him in for the interview,

but I don't recall that.

439 Q And prior to you walking in with the information

to Mr. Terry Hinz had you interviewed Mr.

Kvello?

A Yes.

440 Q And prior to your going into Matt's office to

talk to him about this file, of course, you had


84

already interviewed Dennis Kvello?

A Right.

441 Q Was there a point of time when Matt Miazga said,

well, as it relates to Dennis Kvello maybe you

should just go and get something else?

A Get something else?

442 Q Anything. Anything.

A What are we talking about here?

443 Q Well, right, what are we talking about? Did

Matt Miazga ask you as the investigating officer

to go and get something else. All you had was

Exhibit P-1 and some video tapes so far?

A Right.

444 Q Did Matt Miazga say to you, sir, I need A, B or

C, whatever that might be?

A I don't recall that, no.

445 Q Did he make any special requests of you as it

relates to Dennis Kvello, to get any other

evidence?

A I don't recall. I know that we went and

interviewed the neighbours of the Kvellos,

across the road. We interviewed some children

that had been in there, not in a foster

situation but had been in there in a child care

situation. I took a statement, as you're aware,

from a neighbour across the street, from John


85

Grunow (phonetic) who talked about the pictures

of Anita. Other than that, I don't recall

anything that I was sent out to get on Dennis

Kvello specifically.

446 Q So anything that you had in relation to Dennis

Kvello when you first knew Matt was involved

would have been Exhibit P-1 and the video tapes?

A Exactly.

447 Q And if there was an interview with a neighbour

that may or may not have been contained in

Exhibit P-1?

A It may not have been.

448 Q And if there was an interview with one of the

employees or employers of any of these defend-

ants, that may not have been in Exhibit P-1?

A Right.

449 Q John Grunow, did he say anything, as you can

recollect, about Dennis Kvello?

A Not that I recollect, no.

450 Q Did he say anything about Diane Kvello?

A He talked about the pictures that Sheldon had

shown him in the statement that he gave.

451 Q Sure, but I asked you whether or not he said

anything about Diane Kvello?

A What are we referring to, the fact that these

pictures were there, the fact that Sheldon


86

indicated he got them from his mother, or are we

talking about sexual activity?

452 Q Anything.

A Well, again, there's a written statement in the

disclosure that says exactly what John Grunow

told me.

453 Q Sure.

A And he talked about nude pictures of Anita

Klassen that Sheldon Kvello had shown him, and I

believe, I'm not totally certain, I don't recall

the whole statement right now, that Sheldon had

indicated that he'd gotten it from his mother,

or something, and that later there had been a

meeting with Grunow's mother and Dennis and

Diane and the boys regarding this, that they'd

been discovered or something. I mean it's all

in that written statement.

454 Q It's all in the written statement from John

Grunow?

A Right. Regarding any sexual abuse, sexual

activity, no.

455 Q So all you had, then, was pictures of Anita?

A That was John Grunow's statement, yes.

456 Q No pictures of Diane?

A No.

457 Q No pictures of Dennis?


87

A No.

458 Q How old was Sheldon Kvello at that period of

time?

A I don't recall.

459 Q Was he under the age of 18?

A If I can look in the report I can tell you.

460 Q Sure.

A Born in 1973, so 19 -- or 17, I should say.

461 Q So still a young person, still under the age of

18. Did you have any concerns about Sheldon

being involved in some kind of immoral behaviour

involving his parents and his aunt?

A I'm not sure what -- which aunt, what are you --

462 Q How about Anita, then, those pictures of her,

were you concerned about that?

A Well, no. I'm just not following it. No, I had

no concerns there. I had disclosures about

activity that he had had with the children,

sexual activity with the children, that was a

concern.

463 Q "He" meaning?

A Sheldon.

464 Q Yes.

A There was disclosure there about sexual activity

with the children.

465 Q Right.


88

A But other than that, I'm not sure.

466 Q You didn't think he was the victim of something

involving his parents, his own parents, Diane

and Dennis?

A I think that's always a possibility with anyone,

you know, that's accused of offending, that they

could be a victim.

467 Q Yeah, right. But you never saw any evidence of

it, did you?

A No.

468 Q Did you ever ask for, for instance, medical

records relating to Sheldon and Sherry Kvello?

A I don't believe so.

469 Q These were young people and, you know, there's

always the possibility, you said, that they may

have been abused by their parents if there's any

allegation of sexual abuse out there.

A Right.

470 Q Did you think it would be necessary, therefore,

to see if Sherry Kvello may have been abused at

one time?

A I believe that was done by Social Services, that

I recall.

471 Q And what did you determine?

A I didn't determine anything. As I said, I

believe Social Services did something in regards


89

to that.

472 Q Did you see anything before you went in to see

Matt Miazga to determine what they had found out

about Sherry?

A I don't recall whether it was before I saw Matt

or not.

473 Q Because, you know, when you're trying to

determine whether charges would be laid,

wouldn't the prosecutor like to know what

medical reports there are on any party?

A Well, when you say "any party," I mean what are

we talking here? Are you talking those that are

alleged victims?

474 Q How about some of the accused?

A I guess that would be up to the prosecutor to

ask for that.

475 Q Okay, not you as the investigating officer?

A No.

476 Q Did Matt Miazga ever ask you to determine the

medical status or condition of a Sherry Kvello?

A Not that I recall.

477 Q Did he ever ask you to determine the medical

status of any of the other children that may

have been charged in this particular matter?

A That were charged?

478 Q Yes.


90

A Not that I recall.

479 Q He never invited you to go out and ask for

medical reports?

A No.

480 Q There were two seminars that you went to, and

one was put on by the Department of Social

Services and then the second one was probably an

independent seminar put on by somebody?

A Right.

481 Q Who was that somebody?

A I don't recall. As I said earlier, it was a

group in town, Colin Clay was involved in it, if

you remember him, Liz Newton, there were others,

I don't recall who they were.

482 Q So Liz Newton may have been affiliated with

Colin Clay at this time?

A I believe she probably was.

483 Q And they had a little organization, do you know

the name of that organization?

A I don't, as I said three times now, I don't

remember it.

484 Q But you think that they would have put on a

seminar. And why did you think it would be

necessary that you would go to a seminar put on

by a Colin Clay or a Liz Newton?

A I believe that was the seminar that Dr. Jon


91

Conte came to, it related to ritualistic abuse

of children. I was interested in that, I wanted

to see what that was about.

485 Q Well, in your evidence already, and I don't mean

to cross-examine you on this, but just to make

it clear, you said that, you know, ritual abuse

of children, sexual abuse of children are two

different things. You can have sexual abuse

without ritualistic behaviour?

A Right.

486 Q Why was it so necessary that you would want to

attend at some of these seminars involving

ritual sexual behaviour?

A It was an education.

487 Q Had you worked on other cases involving this

before?

A I don't recall whether I'd ever had any

allegations that involved that, no.

488 Q Well working for the Youth Section to that

point, maybe you had worked there for about a

year. Had you known of any other charges of

ritual sexual abuse in Saskatoon?

A There had been some files that others had worked

on that indicate some of that.

489 Q Did those culminate in charges being laid

ultimately?


92

A I don't believe so.

490 Q For instance, in the City of Saskatoon can you

think of any accused that was charged with

ritual sexual --

A There is no such charge.

491 Q Right.

A It's sexual abuse.

492 Q Sexual abuse, then, involving ritual or satanic

behaviour?

A I'm not aware of any. I don't know.

493 Q So you can't think of one. And when you were

investigating the Klassen and Kvello matter, did

you think that it had some of the attributes of

ritual or satanic behaviour, based on these two

seminars you went to?

A No.

494 Q All right. And as it relates to the Rosses, and

we're talking about the natural parents, did you

think there was an element there of sexual or

satanic abuse?

A Well, again, satanic abuse. There was sexual

abuse there, certainly. Certainly, these

children had been subjected to something, in my

opinion, that would indicate some type of

rituals or that sort of thing, I mean they

disclosed that. But as far as the actual


93

charges, the charges are sexual abuse.

495 Q Yes, there's no doubt about that. There's no

doubt about it. So what you're saying is that

you came away from those two seminars with some

information that was helpful to your job and

your position as a member of the Youth Section?

A I believe so. That's why I went.

496 Q Yes. When you were investigating them further,

Michelle and Kathy and Michael, was there a time

when you thought, well, we know there's sexual

abuse here, but as it relates to Diane and

Dennis Kvello there's an element of maybe the

satanic or ritual behaviour?

A I don't recall ever having thought that.

497 Q And as it relates to Sheldon and Sherry, was

there an element, ever, in all of your

investigations, of the ritual or satanic element

that may be associated with sexual abuse of

children?

A I don't recall that either.

498 Q There were reports that you wanted to get from

Alvin Buckwold and the medical reports from Dr.

Yelland, those are the things Matt had you

actually go out and do; is that right?

A Right.

499 Q Did Matt also have you go out and get other


94

reports regarding Michael or Michelle or Kathy,

medical reports?

A Those are the medical reports. We were aware

that through Social Services they had been at

Alvin Buckwold for treatment years earlier and I

believe back even when they were in their birth

parents' home.

500 Q Did you secure those reports?

A Yes, we did.

501 Q Did you get involved in any disclosure to

defence counsel as it led up to the preliminary

hearing, were you involved in seeing that

defence counsel received any disclosure?

A It's all done through the prosecutor's office.

502 Q Not through you at all, is it?

A No. I mean the prosecutor would ask for

anything that we had and we're aware that we

have to disclose.

503 Q So I just want to sum up here, then, basically,

what you would have before charges were laid.

You had Exhibit P-1, you had the video tapes?

A Right.

504 Q Then you also had medical reports from Dr.

Yelland, medical reports from Alvin Buckwold;

correct?

A I don't believe we had the medical reports from


95

Alvin Buckwold before the charges were laid. I

know we had the ones from Yelland but I don't

believe we had the ones from Alvin Buckwold

before. The Alvin Buckwold one, as you

understand, too, is not physical medical

reports, those are psychological testing that

the children went through.

505 Q Yes. So prior to your laying charges against

any of my clients did you, in fact, go to Alvin

Buckwold and try to secure some of these

reports?

A I don't think so. I think it was after the

charges were laid.

506 Q When did you first realize that there may be a

psychiatric report in relation to Michael on

file somewhere, some place?

A I don't recall the date.

507 Q But it was after the charges were laid that you

recognize that there was a psychiatric report?

A That's when I went to secure them, yes.

508 Q So Matt Miazga hadn't told you till after the

charges were laid that he knew about the

psychiatric reports?

A I don't recall that at all.

509 Q Did you ever see a report that said Michael was

a liar in a psychiatric way, he had a psychotic


96

condition?

A No.

510 Q You never saw that?

A No.

511 Q Did you ever have any idea of that before

charges were laid that some other people who

were professionals recognized that Michael was

the kind of person that could lie, did lie?

A No, I wasn't aware of that.

512 Q Did you ever see the phrase "psychotic liar"?

A No.

513 Q Did you ever go out to a school, before the

charges were laid, and talk to any of the

principals or school teachers at Michael's

school?

A Yeah, we did, in Warman.

514 Q That was before the charges were laid?

A That's right.

515 Q Now did a particular principal tell you at that

time look, you can't believe Michael?

A No, I don't recall that at all.

516 Q Now, did you make any notes of that conversation

with that particular principal?

A I don't believe so.

517 Q And did you remember or bring with you today the

name of that principal?


97

A John Reddekopp.

518 Q All right. So John Reddekopp is the one, and he

said to you nothing about whether or not Michael

was a liar?

A I don't recall that. I mean, certainly, the

Thompsons indicated at times that Michael lied

about things.

519 Q Okay. So the Thompsons did. Now let's talk

about John Reddekopp.

A Well, as I said, I don't recall him saying

anything about Michael lying.

520 Q But before charges were laid you talked to John

Reddekopp?

A Right.

521 Q Now what school teachers did you talk to before

charges were laid? Before charges were laid

what school teacher did you talk to?

A I think the only person I talked to was the

principal, John Reddekopp.

522 Q And before charges were laid did you know that

Michael Ross had abused other children?

A That was the allegation, yes.

523 Q Okay. So there were allegations of abuse by

Michael of other children, prior to your going

in to see Terry Hinz. Did you let Terry Hinz

know that you had already received allegations


98

of abuse of Michael Ross on other children?

A Well I think a lot of that was in the tapes, but

I don't think I verbally said that to Terry.

524 Q When you talked to John Reddekopp, the principal

of the school, did John tell you that, in fact,

Michael had abused in some way other children in

the school?

A I believe that's why I was there.

525 Q And did you mark that down and did you give that

to Mr. Miazga prior to your showing up at his

office?

A I'm not sure. I know that the allegations were

in the tapes of Michael having -- Marilyn

Thompson's notes, for instance, indicated some

of those things, that Michael had disclosed that

to her; those were all given to the prosecutor.

526 Q But surely, in terms of the Thompson notes,

Superintendent Dueck, it didn't talk about all

the children that might have been abused at the

school, did it?

A I have no idea.

527 Q And did you not tell Matt Miazga that you had a

talk with John Reddekopp about the names of

other people that were abused by Michael?

A I don't recall. Gosh, we're talking 12 years

ago.


99

528 Q Sure, that's fine. But you do have P-1, which

you've had a chance to review, is there anything

in there, and I guess we'll just have to look,

about your talk with John Reddekopp?

A I don't recall.

529 Q Did John Reddekopp tell you that Michael was

abusing even one child in that school?

A I believe he told me that there was an

allegation of that, yes.

530 Q Now do you recall how many children Michael may

have abused in that school?

A No.

531 Q And did you actually see to it that those

incidents were investigated by yourself or other

police officers?

A I believe that was an RCMP jurisdiction and

Social Services was involved with that, along

with the Thompsons.

532 Q And who was the RCMP officer that you spoke with

regarding these allegations?

A I'm not sure I spoke to anyone.

533 Q How would it be that any of these allegations

would be investigated if you didn't speak to an

RCMP officer?

A Well, because Social Services would have started

an investigation and would have gone to them.


100

534 Q Is it correct, then, that you would have gone

back to Social Services and told them what you

had learned from Dr. -- I say Dr. Reddekopp, I

should say John Reddekopp?

A I believe Social Services actually indicated

that to me, that that's where the information

came from, that they were aware of it.

535 Q Did you follow up with that to determine whether

there was any truth to these allegations?

A As I said, that was an RCMP jurisdiction there

and Social Services, they had case workers

assigned to these children out there and that

was their thing to do.

536 Q And that's fine. But now you're walking into

Matt Miazga's office and you know this

prosecutor has to know everything that you know

about the case. I gather from you that you

didn't even make an inquiry as to whether or not

these allegations of Michael abusing other

children were true, before you walked into Mr.

Miazga's office?

A I had no reason to doubt that they weren't true.

Michael was very sexually active.

537 Q All right. So at least you believed them to be

true?

A Yes.

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