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Brian Dueck's examination (1)


1

Q. B. No. 271 OF 1994

IN THE COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH FOR SASKATCHEWAN
JUDICIAL CENTRE OF SASKATOON
BETWEEN:
DENNIS KVELLO, DIANE KVELLO, SHELDON KVELLO,
SHERRY KVELLO (by her litigation guardian Diane
Kvello), KARI KLASSEN, RICHARD KLASSEN, PAMELA
KLASSEN, MARIE KLASSEN, JOHN KLASSEN, MYRNA
KLASSEN, PETER DALE KLASSEN, ANITA JANINE KLASSEN,

PLAINTIFFS,
- and -

MATTHEW MIAZGA, SONIA HANSON, RICHARD QUINNEY,
BRIAN DUECK, OWEN MAGUIRE, CAROL BUNKO-RUYS,
SASKATOON BOARD OF POLICE COMMISSIONERS (3),

 

DEFENDANTS.

RECORD OF EVIDENCE
EXAMINATION FOR DISCOVERY
of
BRIAN GEORGE DUECK
(a defendant)

by MR. BORDEN

------------------------------------------------------------
HELD at Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, on THURSDAY, the ELEVENTH
and THURSDAY the TWELFTH of JULY, A.D. 2002.
------------------------------------------------------------
MR. R. L. BORDEN Borden Holgate Law Office
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
SOLICITOR FOR ALL THE PLAINTIFFS
EXCEPTING RICHARD KLASSEN

MR. D. A. GERRAND Gerrand Rath Johnson
Regina, Saskatchewan
SOLICITORS FOR THE DEFENDANTS BRIAN DUECK
OWEN MAGUIRE, SASKATOON BOARD OF POLICE COMMISSIONERS

------------------------------------------------------------
C. V. REPORTING SERVICES LTD.
500 - 224 4th Avenue South
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
S7K 5M5
Phone: (306) 242-3455
email: cvreporting@sk.sympatico.ca


2

Q.B. No. 271 of A.D. 1994
-------------------------------------------------------

I N D E X

LIST OF EXHIBITS

PAGE:
EXHIBIT P-1: FILE PROVIDED TO PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE IN
THE SPRING OF 1991, COMPRISING DEFENDANTS'
DOCUMENTS 531(a) TO 610 (NOT INCLUDING ATTACHED
BLUE SHEETS) ..................................... 61

EXHIBIT P-2: UNAMENDED, ORIGINAL VERSION OF INFORMATION
NUMBER 17746444 (DEFENDANT'S DOCUMENT 142) .... 193

EXHIBIT P-3: AMENDED VERSION OF INFORMATION NUMBER
17746444 (DEFENDANT'S DOCUMENT 316) ....... 193

EXHIBIT P-4: INFORMATION CHARGING SHELDON & SHERRY
KVELLO ...................... 199

EXHIBIT P-5: MEDICAL RECORDS PREPARED BY DR. YELLAND,
ADDRESSED TO LIZ NEWTON ............. 217

EXHIBIT P-6: BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS KNOWN AS THE THOMPSON
NOTES ...................... 280
------------------------------------------------------------

LIST OF UNDERTAKINGS:

THE FOLLOWING IS NOT NECESSARILY A COMPLETE OR CORRECTLY
PHRASED LIST OF THE UNDERTAKINGS AND IS PROVIDED FOR THE
CONVENIENCE OF COUNSEL.
------------------------------------------------------------

PAGE:
UNDERTAKING #1: ATTEMPT TO ASCERTAIN IF SUPERINTENDENT
DUECK MADE NOTES OF CONVERSATION WITH MICHAEL ROSS
AT TACO TIME IN THE FALL OF 1989, IF SO PRODUCE A
COPY OF SAME .................... 15

UNDERTAKING #2: REVIEW EXHIBIT P-1 & ADVISE IF ANY
EVIDENCE GIVEN BY SUPERINTENDENT DUECK IS
INCONSISTENT WITH IT ............... 108

UNDERTAKING #3: ADVISE IF SUPERINTENDENT DUECK
RECOLLECTS THAT HE SAW DEFENDANTS' DOCUMENTS
521, 522, 523, 524 PRIOR TO THE LAYING OF CHARGES 222

 

UNDERTAKING #4: PROVIDE ANY INFORMATION SUPERINTENDENT


3

DUECK MAY RECALL OR GLEAN FROM OTHERS ABOUT THE
PREPARATION AND USE OF THE LISTS OF NAMES USED IN
INTERVIEWING THE ROSS CHILDREN .......... 242

UNDERTAKING #5: (TAKEN UNDER ADVISEMENT): PROVIDE
PARTICULARS AS TO WHAT INFORMATION IN THE TRANSCRIPTS
OF INTERVIEWS WITH THE CHILDREN LED TO REASONABLE &
PROBABLE GROUNDS TO LAY CHARGES IN RESPECT OF EACH
PLAINTIFF .................... 278
------------------------------------------------------------


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Q. B. No. 271 OF 1994

IN THE COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH FOR SASKATCHEWAN
JUDICIAL CENTRE OF SASKATOON
BETWEEN:
DENNIS KVELLO, DIANE KVELLO, SHELDON KVELLO,
SHERRY KVELLO (by her litigation guardian Diane
Kvello), KARI KLASSEN, RICHARD KLASSEN, PAMELA
KLASSEN, MARIE KLASSEN, JOHN KLASSEN, MYRNA
KLASSEN, PETER DALE KLASSEN, ANITA JANINE KLASSEN,

PLAINTIFFS,
- and -

MATTHEW MIAZGA, SONIA HANSON, RICHARD QUINNEY,
BRIAN DUECK, OWEN MAGUIRE, CAROL BUNKO-RUYS,
SASKATOON BOARD OF POLICE COMMISSIONERS (3),

 

DEFENDANTS.

RECORD OF EVIDENCE
EXAMINATION FOR DISCOVERY
of
BRIAN GEORGE DUECK

------------------------------------------------------------
The EXAMINATION FOR DISCOVERY of BRIAN GEORGE DUECK took
place before Mrs. Loraine Smith, Certified Official Court
Reporter, at the offices of C.V. Reporting Services Ltd.,
500 - 224 - 4th Avenue South, SASKATOON, Saskatchewan, on
THURSDAY the ELEVENTH and FRIDAY the TWELFTH of JULY, A.D.
2002.
-----------------------------------------------------------
ATTENDANCE: (in addition to the witness)

MR. R. L. BORDEN Borden Holgate Law Office
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
SOLICITOR FOR ALL THE PLAINTIFFS
EXCEPTING RICHARD KLASSEN

MR. D. A. GERRAND Gerrand Rath Johnson
Regina, Saskatchewan
SOLICITORS FOR THE DEFENDANTS BRIAN DUECK
OWEN MAGUIRE, SASKATOON BOARD OF POLICE COMMISSIONERS

MR. RICHARD ALLEN KLASSEN, a plaintiff
MS. PAMELA KLASSEN, a plaintiff (July 11/02 only)
MS. DIANE KVELLO, a plaintiff (July 11/02 only)
------------------------------------------------------------

1 BRIAN GEORGE DUECK, sworn, testifies:


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MR. BORDEN, examining:

1 Q Good morning.

A Good morning.

2 Q Your name is Brian Dueck?

A That's right.

3 Q And you are employed in the City of Saskatoon,

what is the name of your employer?

A Saskatoon Police Service.

4 Q And how long have you been a member of the

Saskatoon Police Service?

A Thirty-one years.

5 Q What is your designation or position with the

Saskatoon Police Service?

A I'm a superintendent, in charge of human

resources.

6 Q Are you referred to as Superintendent Dueck?

A That's right.

7 Q And may I refer to you as Superintendent Dueck

in these proceedings?

A Sure. Whatever you want.

8 Q I understand, Superintendent Dueck. that you are

one of the defendants in Court of Queen's Bench

action number 271 of '94; is that correct?

A Well, I don't know the number of the action.

MR. GERRAND: That's correct.

A Okay, that's correct.


6

MR. BORDEN: This is off the record.

(Discussion off the record)

9 Q In any event, your counsel has advised you and

you've agreed that you are one of the defendants

in Court of Queen's Bench action number 271 of

1994?

A I am.

10 Q And you've been sworn in these proceedings?

A Yes, I have.

11 Q And you understand that in this examination for

discovery you are required to tell the truth

about those matters raised in the pleadings?

A That's right.

12 Q Now, are you here in any other capacity other

than as a personal defendant?

A No.

MR. BORDEN: I understand, Mr. Gerrand, that

the evidence that Brian Dueck is giving today is

on his own behalf and not on behalf of any of

the other defendants in this action?

MR. GERRAND: That's right.

MR. BORDEN: I represent a number of plaintiffs,

let me tell you that I represent all of the

plaintiffs other than Richard Klassen. Richard

Klassen is here today. And sitting in these

proceedings is my client Pamela Klassen and my


7

client Diane Kvello.

13 Q Do you know Michael Ross?

A Yes, I do.

14 Q When did you first meet Michael Ross?

A It would have been in the late fall, early

winter of 1989.

15 Q And under what circumstances did you meet him?

A I was contacted by Social Services who advised

me that they had a case started and they wished

me to meet with Michael.

16 Q And so upon your making enquiries what case did

you determine that to be?

A Well, that Michael had made allegations of

sexual abuse against him and that he had just

been removed from a foster home and they wished

me to make contact and interview him.

17 Q All right. This would have been in late fall of

1989?

A Right.

18 Q And you understood by that time, when you became

first involved, that Michael Ross had been under

the care of Dale Klassen and Anita Klassen; is

that correct?

A That's right.

19 Q Those are also clients of mine and plaintiffs in

these proceedings. Did you know that Michael


8

Ross had been moved to the Thompson home?

A I was told that.

20 Q Were you told who these Thompsons were,

something about them?

A Simply that Social Services referred to them as

a therapy home.

21 Q Now what are the names of the Thompsons?

A Lyle and Marilyn.

22 Q Prior to getting a call from Social Services had

you opened up any files regarding the Klassens

or the Kvellos?

A No.

23 Q And whenever I say the Klassens or the Kvellos

I'm going to refer only to the plaintiffs when I

use that term. There are other Klassens and

there are other Kvellos, but as it relates to

these proceedings I'm referring specifically to

my clients.

A Right.

24 Q Had you opened up a file regarding a Peter

Klassen prior to you receiving a call from

Social Services?

A Myself?

25 Q Yes.

A No.

26 Q Were there any occurrence reports as it relates


9

to Michael Ross opened prior to your receiving

this call in late fall, 1989?

A I believe there were.

27 Q And what was that in relation to?

A I believe that both Sergeant Schindel and

retired member Marv Hanson had had contact with

Michael. I believe it was about 1985 to 1987,

the two contacts.

28 Q So there were matters raised with respect to

Michael back in about the years 1987 to 1989,

however --

A '85 to '87.

29 Q I'm sorry, 85 to '87. Were you involved in those

matters?

A No, I wasn't.

30 Q Were you aware of the circumstances leading to

those occurrence reports and to the ultimate

disposition of those cases?

A Not until I got into this case.

31 Q All right, fine.

MR. GERRAND: Just a minute. At what point was

he aware?

MR. BORDEN: As he just stipulated, he said,

Mr. Gerrand, that he became only aware in the

fall of 1989.


10

MR. GERRAND: All right.

32 Q Now prior to the fall of 1989 did you know Peter

Klassen?

A No.

33 Q Did you know any of the Klassens or Kvellos

prior to the fall of 1989? And again, for the

record, I mean the plaintiffs in these

proceedings?

A No, I did not.

34 Q Who were your contacts with Social Services?

A Well, there were many and I can't remember who

the original one was. Sorry.

35 Q And after you became involved in this matter in

the fall of 1989 who became the person within

the Department of Social Services with whom you

dealt with the most?

A Gosh. Again, I'm not sure of that, it's a long

time ago. The two names that come to mind to me

are Diane Ens and Liz Newton. I know there were

others, I just don't recall who they were.

36 Q Now I know it's a long time ago. Would there be

any document that you would like to refer to

that might refresh your memory as to who you may

have spoken to at the Department of Social

Services regarding Michael Ross and allegations

of sexual abuse in the fall of 1989?


11

A I don't believe there's a document here. Social

Services may have one. I don't have one.

37 Q Is it your evidence today that Michael Ross was

making allegations against his natural parents

in the fall of 1989?

A Well, as we got into the interviews with him. It

wasn't even in the fall of '89 when we started

that. The initial contact with him, his

allegations were that there had been sexual

abuse going on in his foster home.

38 Q And when did you first hear from Michael that

there were, in fact, allegations of sexual abuse

in his foster home?

A When?

39 Q Yes.

A At my first meeting with him.

40 Q Yes.

A In the fall of '89.

41 Q So it was in the fall of '89 that you met

Michael?

A Right.

42 Q And in that meeting with Michael did he reveal

to you that there were things going on in the

home of Anita and Dale Klassen?

A That's what he referred to, yes.

43 Q Now, is that the first time that you had heard


12

Michael express the fact that there were bad

things going on in that home?

A Yes.

44 Q Where did you first meet Michael?

A We arranged a meeting at the Taco Time

restaurant on 33rd Street with Lyle and Marilyn

Thompson, and they brought Michael in.

45 Q Now again, I realize it has been a long time ago

but you've had the opportunity to review some of

your occurrence reports and some of your

documents prior to coming here today, I'm sure.

Was the meeting at Taco Time with Michael Ross

in the fall of 1989 the first time that you met

Michael Ross?

A Yes, it was.

46 Q Would you recall the month that you may have met

Michael Ross?

A I really can't.

47 Q Would it be fair to say that the meeting at Taco

Time in the fall of 1989 involved a Lyle

Thompson, Marilyn Thompson, Michael Ross and

you?

A That's right.

48 Q Was there any member of the Department of Social

Services there?

A I don't believe so.


13

49 Q Was there any therapist or counsellor there?

A No.

50 Q Was there any other party there?

A No.

51 Q Prior to your meeting with Michael Ross had any

of his sisters made any allegations, as far as

you knew, regarding sexual abuse?

A Not as far as I knew.

52 Q I'd like to refer specifically to Michelle.

Prior to your meeting Michael Ross at Taco Time

had you met Michelle?

A No, I had not.

53 Q Prior to your meeting Michael at Taco Time had

you met Cathy?

A No, I had not.

54 Q So as far as you knew and prior to meeting at

Taco Time on this particular day, there wasn't

any written report relating to Michael alleging

sexual abuse?

A Was I aware of any? No, I was not.

55 Q So no written reports?

A No.

56 Q And let me ask you this specific question. Did

Michael Ross disclose at the very first meeting

at Taco Time?

A Did he disclose what?


14

57 Q Well the usual word in terms of disclosed is

that he would make some remarks or make some

statements regarding sexual abuse, either to him

or to his family members.

A Yes, he did.

58 Q Right. And were you able to review any

documents prior to coming here that might have

helped you recall what he may have disclosed at

that time at Taco Time?

A When he sat with me, when he found out who I

was, he said to me that -- basically, his words

were that, "Once I feel safe I've got lots to

tell you about sexual abuse at Dale and

Anita's."

59 Q Did you make notes of that conversation?

A I'm not sure if I did.

60 Q Would you undertake to determine whether or not

you made notes of that meeting at Taco Time?

A Sure.

MR. GERRAND: We'll check to see if we can

determine if any notes were made.

MR. BORDEN: And once having checked and determined

whether notes were made would you undertake, Mr.

Gerrand, on behalf of your client, to provide us

with a copy of those notes?

MR. GERRAND: We will. Superintendent Dueck has


15

looked and to date hasn't been able to find any

notes of that meeting; isn't that correct?

A That's right.

MR. GERRAND: But we'll check again.

UNDERTAKING #1: ATTEMPT TO ASCERTAIN IF SUPERINTENDENT

DUECK MADE NOTES OF CONVERSATION WITH MICHAEL ROSS AT TACO

TIME IN THE FALL OF 1989, IF SO PRODUCE A COPY OF SAME

61 Q MR. BORDEN: When a file is opened, particu-

larly a file regarding sexual abuse of children,

I take it that the usual protocol would be to

keep every piece of paper, every document and

put it into one file; is that correct?

A Well, things have changed a lot from 1989 or '90

to today, certainly. In 1989 this was a new

field and certainly we tried to hang on to every

piece of paper, every document that we made,

absolutely.

62 Q Would it be fair to say that by the time you met

Michael Ross that you had already interviewed at

least 100 children on other matters relating to

sexual abuse?

A Probably.

63 Q What was your position at police services?

A I was a corporal in Youth Section.

64 Q In the fall of 1989 you had already worked at

and in the Youth Section for what period of


16

time?

A About a year and a half.

65 Q Wouldn't it be fair to say by that time that you

had realized that everything that a child utters

is part of a puzzle, part of putting together

the case; is that correct?

A That's right.

66 Q So that if the child utters something at Taco

Time or at any other place, it would be helpful

to keep notes of that?

A That's right.

67 Q Did you keep notes at home or did you keep that

at the police station?

A At the police station.

68 Q And were those notes always in your custody and

possession?

A Yes.

69 Q When did you first learn that those notes went

missing?

MR. GERRAND: He didn't say --

A I didn't say that I made a note of it.

70 Q MR. BORDEN: Okay, I appreciate that. So what

you're saying is you have a person, Michael

Ross, who, according to the Thompsons has made

allegations of sexual abuse in his former foster

home?


17

A Right.

71 Q And you're saying today that you don't -- you

didn't make notes or you don't recall making

notes?

A I don't recall making a note.

72 Q Wouldn't that be part of your protocol, however,

even at that time, 1989, to make notes?

A I would say not necessarily.

73 Q Now, I realize that you don't want to be sitting

there with a child and making notes in front of

a child because that doesn't help to get

information out.

A Right.

74 Q But surely, once you've left that child and

you're on your way to the police station or you

arrive at the police station, you must have put

that conversation into a report of some kind?

A I don't recall whether I did or didn't.

75 Q Wouldn't it have been part of the protocol at

that time to put the statements of Michael into

an occurrence report?

A Not necessarily. At that time often occurrence

reports weren't left until the file was

completed, that's changed since then but that

was the procedure at that time.

76 Q And when you say until the file was completed,


18

what do you mean by that?

A Until it was either completed without charges or

completed to take to the prosecutor for charges.

77 Q All right. So forget the word occurrence

report. What other device did you have that

would be helpful in keeping a record of what the

child said around the fall of 1989?

A Certainly notes would have been. My meeting

with Michael that day was about two minutes long

and that was about all he said and from there it

was turned back over to Social Services to do

the work that they needed to do and come back to

me with whether they had something to go with or

not.

78 Q Thank you. As I understand the evidence, you --

MR. GERRAND: There hasn't been any evidence.

MR. BORDEN: That's fine. That's a good

point.

79 Q As I understand it, you may have attended at

Michael's school at one time in the fall of

1989; is that correct?

A No.

80 Q As I understand it, you may have attended with

Michael, while Michael was still living with

Dale and Anita Klassen?

A At a school?


19

81 Q Yes.

A No. I attended a school in Warman after he -- I

believe that would have been in 1990, though. I

attended at a school in Warman that Michael

attended.

82 Q Do you dispute that you attended at Michael

Ross's school prior to his moving to the

Thompson home?

A Absolutely.

83 Q And do you dispute having any interviews with

Michael whatsoever, prior to his moving to the

Thompson home?

A Yes, I do.

84 Q Having met Michael and knowing that he would

disclose, what steps did you then take?

A I was back in contact with Social Services and

advised them that they needed to do whatever

they were going to do regarding this case. They

normally started the investigation. And that I

would wait for someone to contact me with

information as to whether we were going to

proceed.

85 Q As I recall, the meeting was only a couple of

minutes long according to your statements made

here today?

A That's right.


20

86 Q Do you recall the precise words that Michael may

have uttered?

A Not precisely. Generally I do, as I've stated

them earlier.

87 Q So Michael said words to the effect, once I feel

safe I have a lot to tell you about --

A Sexual abuse at Dale and Anita's.

88 Q Now how old was Michael at that time?

A I believe he was nine. Nine or ten, I think he

was ten at that time.

89 Q Did you find it odd that words such as, "once I

feel safe I have a lot to tell you" to be

strange or odd if uttered by a nine year old?

A Yes, I did.

90 Q Did you think that someone may have talked to

him before you got there, and put those words in

his mouth so to speak?

A I didn't think that necessarily, but I was also

aware that people had already talked to him.

91 Q When did you next deal with Michael Ross?

A I believe it would have been the starting of the

interviews in 1990, early fall of 1990.

92 Q Now one year, then, would have past?

A Almost a year, yes.

93 Q Now over that period of one year, Superintendent

Dueck, did you at any time get involved with a


21

case involving the Kvellos and Klassens, or

allegations of sexual abuse involving the Ross

children?

A Yes, I did.

94 Q So prior to that period, the fall of 1990, what

happened?

A Well, from the information I received from

Social Services, after our meeting with Michael

Social Services became more involved and removed

Michelle and Kathy from that home as well and

did their own investigation. And from that we

started a file on this case.

95 Q Now in order for them to remove Michelle and

Kathy there must have been some information.

Did you provide them information so Michelle and

Kathy Ross might be removed from the home of

Dale and Anita Klassen, my clients?

A No, I did not.

96 Q Have you ever seen an occurrence report or a

statement that might help you in understanding

why Social Services removed Michelle and Kathy?

A No, I believe Social Services, it was a verbal

thing that they had removed them. I'm not sure

when the children were assigned to Carol Bunko-

Ruys, whether they were involved with her before

I was involved or not, I'm not sure. But that's


22

where the information came from regarding what

was happening.

97 Q Did you form a team with Liz Newton and Diane

Ens, in order to investigate further allegations

of sexual abuse on the part of Michael Ross?

A Well, again, Mr. Borden, in 1990 we didn't form

those teams, that's been a result since then.

But certainly, I had contact with them, I

wouldn't even say regularly. I know that they

had meetings that I did not attend regarding the

case. I would say I would -- to use the term --

liaise with them, but I certainly was not part

of a team with them.

98 Q Prior to your meeting with Michael on the second

occasion, which was the fall of 1990, did you at

any time talk to Liz Newton or Diane Ens about

other allegations Michael may have made?

A I believe that my contact after that was with

Carol Bunko-Ruys.

99 Q And did Carol Bunko-Ruys tell you about other

allegations that Michael had made?

A Yes, she did.

100 Q And did she say that those allegations were made

after your meeting at Taco Time in the fall of

1989?

A I don't recall.


23

101 Q Did you, prior to coming here today, review any

of your documents to determine what Carol Bunko-

Ruys may have told you in the year 1990?

A I reviewed documents but I'm recalling strictly

from memory that I had contact with her, that I

would visit her at her clinic or her offices on

Broadway Avenue and talk basically about the

work that she was doing with the children. And

from that it was determined that I would start

interviewing these children.

102 Q When did you first meet this person, Carol

Bunko-Ruys, who happens to be one of the

defendants in this action?

A Probably about the spring of 1990.

103 Q And in that period of time was she the main

source person that you dealt with that had

anything to do with the Department of Social

Services?

A I would say so. She wasn't working -- she was

contracted for Social Services but she wasn't a

Social Services' employee. But yes, I would say

she was my main contact.

104 Q What was her position at that time, as far as

you knew?

A As far as I knew she was the children's

therapist.


24

105 Q Did you know anything at that time about her

qualifications, did you inquire?

A Not at all.

106 Q Not at all?

A No.

107 Q Did you inquire at all about the qualifications,

let's say, of Diane Ens or Liz Newton?

A No.

108 Q I want to talk to you about these words "ritual

sexual abuse". When did you first believe there

was a ritual element or a satanic element

involved in this particular case of Michael

Ross?

MR. GERRAND: The witness hasn't said that he

believed that.

MR. BORDEN: Yes, that's fine.

109 Q Am I wrong to say that you believed that?

A There were disclosures of that, I'm not sure

that I ever believed that had actually happened.

110 Q Okay. So for the record today, then, are you

saying that you did not believe that at the time

those words were uttered, "ritual sexual abuse",

"satanic sexual abuse" involving the Ross

children and the plaintiffs?

A I think that in my opinion "ritual" or "satanic"

has nothing to do with sexual abuse, the term.


25

As police officers we work on sexual abuse or

child abuse.

111 Q Did you see any evidence of ritual abuse in 1990

involving the Rosses or my clients?

A What would be the definition of ritual abuse?

112 Q All right, fine. Let me ask you that question,

how do you define ritual sexual abuse?

A As I said, I mean, many people have many

definitions of it but that wasn't my concern. I

think that that becomes a red herring in sexual

abuse investigations and the focus is on were

they sexually abused? And that's what I would

look at.

113 Q All right. I had asked you what your under-

standing of the meaning of ritual sexual abuse

was and you said other people have different

understandings --

A Would you like to hear mine?

114 Q Yes.

A Okay. Well, I would suspect that in my opinion

it would probably have to do with different

rituals, different ceremonies, costumes,

disguises, those sorts of things. And I get

that only from articles I've read and speaking

to people.

115 Q Prior to your meeting Michael Ross in the fall


26

of 1989 had you gone to any seminars, meetings,

regarding ritual sexual abuse?

A Yes, I had.

116 Q So you did take the opportunity to try to

understand the meaning of that term better?

A Right.

117 Q And do you recall the nature of those meetings,

who sponsored some of the meetings that you

attended?

A Well I know that one was sponsored by Social

Services. The other one was sponsored by a

group -- there were two that I attended -- it

was sponsored by a group in Saskatoon and for

the life of me I can't remember the name of the

group. I know who some of the people were that

organized it, I don't remember the name of the

group.

118 Q Were there any people presented as so-called

experts in the area of ritual sexual abuse at

either one of those two meetings?

A Yes, there were.

119 Q Do you recall some of their names?

A I recall the one and that was Dr. Jon Conte.

120 Q At any of those meetings did Liz Newton ever

present herself as an expert or a specialist, so

to speak, in ritual sexual abuse?


27

A Yes, she did.

121 Q And when you were making determinations as to

whether there was that element of ritualism,

Satanism, did you confer with Liz Newton?

A Yes, I did.

122 Q And was that in relation to the Ross case,

involving my plaintiffs?

A No, it did not involve your plaintiffs.

123 Q Who did it involve?

A It involved the Ross children's natural parents

and the birth mother's, if I can call her that,

boyfriend or common-law, Donald White.

124 Q Did you ever confer with either Liz Newton or

Dr. Jon Conte regarding ritual abuse of any of

the plaintiffs?

A Of any of the plaintiffs in this case?

125 Q Yes.

A No. There were no allegations of that.

126 Q So as far as you knew, and I'm talking about by

the fall of 1990, there hadn't been any allega-

tions of ritual sexual abuse as it related to

the plaintiffs?

A No.

127 Q And as far as you knew, by the fall of 1990, the

only allegations of ritual abuse may have been

in relation to the children's natural parents or


28

the boyfriend of the mother, the natural parent?

A That's right.

128 Q And that person's name was Donald White, as I

understand it?

A That's right.

129 Q Now, did in your investigation your opinion

change, that is, after the fall of 1990, that

there may have been a ritual or satanic

component to the allegations of sexual abuse

involving the plaintiffs?

MR. GERRAND: So what's the question?

A Yeah, sorry, I missed that one.

MR. BORDEN: Sure. Would you like to read it

back, please?

COURT REPORTER (By reading): Now, did in your

investigation your opinion change, that is,

after the fall of 1990, that there may have been

a ritual or satanic component to the allegations

of sexual abuse involving the plaintiffs?

MR. GERRAND: I don't believe the question is a

fair question because I don't believe the

witness has expressed the opinion that he

believed there was a component of ritualistic or

satanic abuse related to the allegations of

abuse against these plaintiffs.

MR. BORDEN: Thank you, Mr. Gerrand.


29

130 Q In 1990, in the fall of that year, is it your

evidence that you did not believe that there was

a ritual or satanic component involved in the

Klassen and Kvello allegations?

A I did not believe that.

131 Q Did your opinion change as to whether there was

a ritual or satanic component after the fall of

1990?

A No.

132 Q Was there a time in all of your investigations,

and I'll give you a time line, let's say from

the fall of 1989 to 1993, where you thought that

there may have been ritual sexual molestation of

the children or sexual abuse of the children

involving my plaintiffs?

A I believe that there was a sexual molestation of

the children by your plaintiffs but I wouldn't

call it ritual or satanic. I should also

clarify that, I wasn't doing any investigation

in 1993 into this file, it ended with the

arrests of the people in 1992, in July.

MR. GERRAND: You said July '92.

A Was it '92? It was '91, I'm sorry. It's a long

time ago. July of '91.

133 Q MR. BORDEN: Prior to interviewing Kathy Ross

or Michelle Ross, did you talk to Dr. Jon Conte?


30

A Yes, I believe that seminar was before I had

this file. I didn't talk to him personally,

though, I just listened to his presentation.

134 Q And was there any point of time where you

solicited the opinion of Dr. Jon Conte?

A I don't recall doing that, no.

135 Q Do you ever recall in an occurrence report or

any statement you may have made where you said

that as it relates to the Klassen/Kvello

allegations of sexual abuse that you would want

to rely on the opinion of Dr. Jon Conte.

A Do I recall saying that?

136 Q Yes.

A No.

137 Q And is there any period of time where you may

have corresponded with Dr. Jon Conte?

A Not that I recall.

138 Q Do you remember ever being in a telephone

conversation with him?

A No.

139 Q Do you remember seeing any other officer present

opinions by Jon Conte as it relates to Michelle

or Kathy or Michael Ross?

A No.

140 Q Would it be fair to say that in the determina-

tion of whether or not charges should have been


31

laid against any of the plaintiffs that the

advice or opinion of Dr. Jon Conte was not part

of that determination?

A That's right.

141 Q Prior to the laying of charges against each and

every one of the plaintiffs did you seek the

advice of any other so-called expert in the area

of sexual abuse and/or ritual sexual abuse?

A Other than the people that I worked with that I

considered to be experts?

142 Q Yes.

A That's Carol Bunko-Ruys and social workers. No,

I conferred with the prosecutors who handled the

case.

143 Q So what you're saying is you left it up to

people that you thought were the experts and

that would be, number one, Carol Bunko-Ruys?

A Correct.

144 Q Number two, it would be Liz Newton?

A I would suggest that, yes.

145 Q And number three, possibly, it would have been

Diane Ens?

A Possibly.

146 Q Was there any other person that you may have

relied upon to give an opinion regarding the

sexual abuse and/or ritual sexual abuse of the


32

Ross children?

A Not that I recall.

147 Q Did you know Marie Klassen?

A Marie Klassen?

148 Q Yes.

A The plaintiff?

149 Q Yes.

A Not personally.

150 Q In the fall of 1990 through to the fall of,

let's say, 1991, did the name Marie Klassen ever

come up?

A Certainly, in the disclosures it did, yes.

151 Q Okay, let's give you some time lines here.

Prior to the fall of 1990 did the name Marie

Klassen arise?

A That I was aware of?

152 Q Yes.

A No.

153 Q So as far as you can recall and your evidence is

today that you did not know a Marie Klassen

prior to the fall of 1990?

A Not that I recall.

154 Q Later on did you determine that there was such a

person as Marie Klassen?

A Yes.

155 Q And when did you first make that determination?

A I would say it was after the disclosure by the

children, as we started looking into the

background of this.

continued > > >