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Brian Dueck's examination (8)


234

1287 Q Now, there was a time when you weren't even sure

of the relationship of one party to another.

For instance, there must have been a time when

you didn't know how Diane Kvello fit into the

picture with the other Klassens?

A That's right.

1288 Q When was it that you first determined the

relationship of the various parties? For

instance, according to your evidence here today

either one of the three children may have

mentioned Diane Kvello. Once her name was

mentioned did you know then and there who Diane

Kvello was and how she was related to the other

people?

A I think through some of the questions, I think,

as I recall, some of the kids might have known

that she was Anita's sister.

1289 Q Sure. But you would have gotten that right

during the interview, wouldn't you, it wouldn't

have been through some other party somewhere

else?

A Well, I would assume that I would have spoken to

the social workers about any of these connec-

tions to the family.

1290 Q But if these people hadn't even been mentioned


235

before why would you --

A No, I'm talking after the interviews.

1291 Q After the interviews, okay, that's fine. So

after the interviews you'd want to know the

connection of any one of the plaintiffs with the

other?

A Yes.

1292 Q There was a time during the interviews, you

probably recollect, as well, when lists were

prepared of people?

A M'hm.

1293 Q And who prepared those lists of names?

A I think it was the children that listed, when

they were asked who might have committed

offences against them, or however the question

was put, that they listed a list of people.

1294 Q So you're saying that the list was drawn as the

children began to disclose?

A As I recall, yes.

1295 Q Now, as the children disclosed were they drawing

up a list in their own handwriting?

A No, I believe that I wrote -- I also recall that

Carol Bunko might have brought a list with her

from her dealings with the children, but I'm not

certain of that.

1296 Q Well, then, I have to ask you these questions


236

about Carol Bunko-Ruys. You're the investigat-

ing officer, is that correct?

A Right.

1297 Q You're the person in charge of this police file?

A Right.

1298 Q This police file involves three children,

Michael Ross, Kathy Ross and Michelle Ross?

A It involved other children, as well.

1299 Q Yes, but at the time being, when you're

interviewing the Ross children --

A That's right.

1300 Q -- you're really talking about those three

children. And Carol Bunko-Ruys you already know

has seen those children?

A That's right.

1301 Q And she's made notes of children's interviews?

A I assume. I don't know.

1302 Q Did you ever get copies of those?

A No.

1303 Q You never asked for copies of those?

A No.

1304 Q So you didn't know whether, when you went into

any one particular interview, whether Carol

Bunko-Ruys knew of people that you didn't know?

I know that's a bit confusing.

A Yes, it is.


237

1305 Q Dennis Kvello, for instance, if Dennis Kvello's

name was mentioned for the first time in the

interviews of the Ross children, did you presume

that Carol Bunko-Ruys already knew the name

Dennis Kvello?

A I can't read Carol's mind, I don't know. She'd

have to answer that.

1306 Q That's right. Because the two of you did work

together; right?

A Well, we were in contact, yes, and we did the

interviews together.

1307 Q And surely, if you had a question you would ask

her?

A A question regarding?

1308 Q About who Dennis Kvello might have been, for

instance?

A As I say, if the name came up in the interview I

would assume that we probably didn't have time

to discuss it there.

1309 Q Right. So you'd discuss it after the interview?

A Right.

1310 Q And then you would ask her a question and maybe

she would know and maybe she wouldn't know?

A Could have been.

1311 Q But what is very clear is that you didn't ask

her for her notes?


238

A I didn't have her notes, no.

1312 Q Because what you wanted to do, as I understand

this, you wanted to draw conclusions based on

what you heard from those children?

A That's right.

1313 Q You didn't want to have that opinion in any way

tarred by someone else's notes, opinion,

conclusion?

A That's right.

1314 Q So that you listened and you learned from the

interviews from all of the children that you

had?

A That's right.

1315 Q And ultimately, based on those interviews, just

those interviews and Dr. Yelland's reports, you

laid charges against the plaintiffs?

A That's right.

1316 Q These particular lists, did you ultimately make

your own list?

A Ultimately, yes. I have handwritten notes of

the different people.

1317 Q As we go through each one of the interviews with

the children, as labourious as that is, we

noticed that you would have in your hands or on

the table at the police station during these

interviews pieces of paper that resembled that?


239

A Okay.

1318 Q And by that I mean the lined paper, 8 by 11.

Who, in fact, wrote out the list of names that

ultimately each child was asked to strike out?

A I don't recall.

1319 Q There was during these interviews of Michael,

Michelle and Kathy lists that were presented.

To refresh your memory, on this paper there were

names, Dale and Anita?

A M'hm.

1320 Q And after the children spoke about Dale and

Anita they were told to strike out the name?

A M'hm.

1321 Q Whose list was it they were told to strike out?

A I believe it was Carol's, but I'm not certain of

that.

1322 Q So you allowed Carol to bring in a list of

names; is that correct?

A I don't recall that.

1323 Q But you think it was Carol's list?

A Right. M'hm.

1324 Q Then what happened is, of course, you have Dale

and Anita's name struck out?

A Right.

1325 Q And then there was the next name on the list,

and it may have been Rick and Kari, and then the


240

children were asked to talk about Rick and Kari?

A Okay.

1326 Q And then they were asked to strike that name

out. That would be from that same list we're

talking about.

A Okay.

1327 Q And it would be also the one you think maybe

Carol Bunko-Ruys brought along; is that correct?

A Possibly.

1328 Q Now was that according to -- in these lists, I'm

sure that you didn't employ the use of -- I'm

sorry, I'll start again. I'm sure that you

didn't employ lists when you interviewed other

children when you were working for the Youth

Division. I can't imagine that you would put in

front of a child a list of suspects?

A I would assume that this list came from the

children, that the children had named these

people. I would never put a list in front of

them if they hadn't named them at some point.

1329 Q Right. But the only point they could have named

them would be during these interviews, according

to your evidence?

A As I said, that's what I recall.

1330 Q So the only opportunity for them to even help

prepare a list would be during these interviews?


241

A Unless they did it with Carol.

1331 Q Unless they did it with Carol?

A Right.

1332 Q So are you telling me that there's more going on

here than just what we see on the video tapes?

A Well, as you're aware they were in therapy with

Carol. I would assume that part of that therapy

would be talking about people who had hurt them

or had molested them.

1333 Q But you wanted this information, though, to be

pristine, you didn't want it clouded by anyone

else's interviews or conclusions or inferences.

Why would you allow Carol Bunko-Ruys to bring

lists into that --

MR. GERRAND: He hasn't said that he's sure

that's where the list came from.

1334 Q MR. BORDEN: That's right. Let me put it a

different way, then. Wherever the list came

from, why would you want a list in that

interview room?

A I'm not sure.

1335 Q Did you notice that in the use of that list that

sometimes the child, like Kathy would say, "No,

nothing else happened." Nothing else happened,

no other person touched her, and she would shake

her head no; do you remember seeing that?


242

A Yes.

1336 Q And then, as soon as the list was shown, Rick

and Kari, then she would begin to talk about

perhaps Rick and Kari. Did you ever notice

that?

A I'm not sure the list was shown to her. I don't

recall that. I haven't looked at these tapes

since 1991, so I really don't recall.

1337 Q Oh. Well, again, the tapes speak for them-

selves. I would like you to undertake to

provide any information that you may recall or

glean from other people about those lists. I

would like you to undertake to provide informa-

tion concerning the preparation and the use of

those lists during the interview. May we have

that, Mr. Gerrand?

MR. GERRAND: Yes.

UNDERTAKING #4: PROVIDE ANY INFORMATION SUPERINTENDENT

DUECK MAY RECALL OR GLEAN FROM OTHERS ABOUT THE

PREPARATION AND USE OF THE LISTS OF NAMES USED IN

INTERVIEWING THE ROSS CHILDREN

1338 Q MR. BORDEN: There was a technique that was

used also in these interviews, and that is when

the child couldn't remember something Carol

Bunko-Ruys would have them sort of get into a

fetal position and close their eyes and


243

recollect something; do you know of what I'm

talking?

A I recall that.

1339 Q What was that?

A You would have to ask Carol.

1340 Q You let her do it because she was the

professional with you; is that right?

A That's right.

1341 Q Did you at any time ask her what is that?

A I don't recall.

1342 Q And to this day do you know what she was doing?

A I assumed it was part of therapy with the

children.

1343 Q I thought that you had told one of the accused

that you had interviewed hundreds of children?

A No. I interviewed approximately 100, not

hundreds.

1344 Q This is 100 children before you interviewed the

accused?

A Right.

1345 Q Now at any time did you get another expert into

your offices to help with interviews and who

would have the children get into that fetal

position, close their eyes and come out with

information?

A No. I've had people help with interviews,


244

social workers, I think, but I've never seen

that before.

1346 Q Have you seen it since?

A I left the Youth Section in July of 1991.

1347 Q The other thing is the whole nature of doing

investigation work in the Youth Division, and I

just want to take you through that. You had

interviewed about 100 children before this case;

is that correct?

A About, yes.

1348 Q And where did you usually interview the

children?

A In the police station.

1349 Q Is there a special room?

A That's right.

1350 Q What's that room called?

A The soft room.

1351 Q And in the soft room did you ordinarily video

tape the interview?

A Yes.

1352 Q What was the reason for that at that time? And

I'm talking about 1989 to 1991.

A As evidence. We would be very disruptive to be

writing notes as the child was speaking.

Children couldn't sign a statement, the age.

1353 Q Did you at times have some counsellor or


245

therapist with you in those interviews of the

other 100 children?

A I said at times we did, at times we didn't.

1354 Q All right.

A There were many where we didn't.

1355 Q And many when you didn't, right. What was the

reason for bringing a counsellor or therapist

into that interview room in that period of time,

'89 to '91?

A With these children?

1356 Q No, any children.

A It would depend on the child itself. It would

depend how, if I could use the term, how wrecked

they were. There were children that were able

to disclose with just a police officer present -

- and I'm not the only one who did it -- there

were times when they were pretty wrecked and

they needed the support of someone else, or the

expertise of someone else there to help.

1357 Q Did you think that Michael Ross was wrecked when

he was interviewed?

A Yes, I did.

1358 Q Did you think Michelle Ross was wrecked when she

was interviewed?

A Yes.

1359 Q Did you think that Kathy Ross was wrecked when


246

she was interviewed?

A Yes.

1360 Q Did you think any of the Mayes children were

wrecked when they were interviewed?

A Not like the Ross children.

1361 Q And any of the other children involved here were

not as wrecked as the Ross children?

A Right.

1362 Q I'm going back now just to have a better under-

standing of police work and police investigation

into child sexual abuse. Would it be fair to

say that when a child did disclose to you in the

other 100 children that you interviewed, that it

would be in very general terms at the beginning,

they would just say "there was bad touching,"

for instance?

A Sometimes; sometimes not.

1363 Q And so, then, later on you would want to know

more about that touching?

A Sure.

1364 Q Particularly before charges are laid you would

want to know more about the incident?

A What do you mean by more?

1365 Q You would want to know who touched the child?

A Sure.

1366 Q All right. And you would want to know where the


247

event took place?

A If possible.

1367 Q And you would want to know what the touching

exactly was?

A Yes.

1368 Q And you would want to know when the touching

occurred?

A If possible, yes.

1369 Q And the why question, no one could ever figure

out why this happened?

A Well, I would assume not.

1370 Q In terms of who it was, you would want to ask a

number of questions about the identity of the

person?

A M'hm.

1371 Q Because when they said "uncle" that could be any

uncle; is that correct?

A That's right.

1372 Q And would you ask for physical descriptions of

the suspect to find out who it is the child is

talking about, in your general investigations?

A I would suggest if there was a doubt, if the

child had some doubt about who the person was.

Not if they knew the name or knew other details.

1373 Q Other details, right. But you would want to be

satisfied, I would take it, that you're talking


248

about the right individual?

A Yes.

1374 Q So in terms of who it is, if the child just

simply said an uncle, well, you'd want to know

which uncle?

A That's right.

1375 Q And even if they said it was Uncle Bill, would

you want to know about that Uncle Bill and how

that Uncle Bill is described?

A Described or relationship or where they live,

sure.

1376 Q Or where they live, right. And then you'd want

to know where the event took place?

A If possible.

1377 Q And if the child recalls it, which house it was

in or apartment, that's extremely helpful?

A Yes.

1378 Q Not only for getting -- well, particularly in

relation to identity?

A Yes.

1379 Q And then in terms of what the act was exactly,

that's important so you'd know which charge

might be laid, if any charges are ultimately

laid?

A That's right.

1380 Q And it certainly would help in terms of any


249

counselling or therapy later on, in terms of how

do you help this child?

A Right.

1381 Q And then you'd want to know when because when

would help you determine how remote in time this

was?

A That's right.

1382 Q And how remote in time it was, of course,

relates to the child's ability to recall the

events?

A Right.

1383 Q And the cogency of that child's evidence would

depend upon the time element, wouldn't it, how

long ago it was?

A Not necessarily, but it could be.

1384 Q It could be, right. It would be just another

factor in terms of the when?

A Right.

1385 Q So now you've got all that information in

relation to a suspect and I'm wondering, was it

your practice to at least go and talk to the

suspect first, make sure that he or she wasn't

out of the country before you might have wanted

to lay charges?

A I would suspect if it was one specific incident

or if you could narrow it down to one specific


250

time, yes.

1386 Q But if it occurred between 1989 and 1993 it

would be hard to -- then it wouldn't matter

whether they had been out of the country?

A Well, it would be very difficult.

1387 Q But if it only occurred on a couple of occasions

then you probably would want to talk to the

suspect, wouldn't you?

A Well, it depends on the situation.

1388 Q What situation is that?

A Well, whether there would be anything that would

be gleaned from that, or whether it was

relevant.

1389 Q But you just said that if, in fact, there's a

number of times, then you wouldn't see any

necessity in talking to the suspect, right?

A Well, as I say, it depends on number of times,

it depends on a lot of different circumstances.

1390 Q So if the allegation is that Sherry only touched

Michael once, would you like to talk to Sherry

Kvello first before you charged here to find out

if she was even around during that one time?

A Again, it would depend.

1391 Q And what would that depend on?

A Whether that would be necessary. That would be

a judgment call.


251

1392 Q Well the laying of a criminal charge against

someone for sexual assault is a pretty big thing

even for you, isn't it, I mean to actually go

and lay it?

A Absolutely.

1393 Q And it carries with it a certain stigma that I'm

sure you're aware of?

A Exactly.

1394 Q So if you wanted to lay a charge against

somebody and it was alleged that the event only

took place on one or two occasions wouldn't you

want to, at least, interview the suspect?

A More than likely.

1395 Q All right. So I want to take you now to Sherry

Kvello and deal with her specifically. Did you

send anybody else out to interview Sherry

Kvello?

A I don't believe I did. I think Social Services

did, as I recall.

1396 Q But this is a police matter, why would you let

Social Services go and interview Sherry Kvello

on a police matter?

A Well, it wasn't a police matter it was a matter

of her age and being in a home where these

allegations were made, a concern for her welfare

there as well.


252

1397 Q So once you knew that Social Services might have

interviewed her, did you get a copy of that

interview?

A I don't believe I did.

1398 Q So before you laid charges did you even ask if

that interview had taken place?

A I'm not sure if it had taken place before the

charges.

1399 Q You don't know of any interview, at least you

don't know of one today?

A Well, I do recall something about her being

interviewed but I believe it was after the

charges, but I'm not certain.

1400 Q After the charges were laid, all right. And

would that same thing apply to Sheldon, that any

interview by Social Services would have been

after the charges were laid?

A If there were any.

1401 Q So when it comes to the issue of, then,

identity, and to make sure that you've got the

right person, sometimes you would want to visit

the suspect; is that correct?

A Sometimes, yeah.

1402 Q In our case, involving the Ross children,

there's a number of grandpas and grandmas.

There's grandpas on the Thompson side, there's


253

grandmas and grandpas that are on the Klassen

side, okay?

A I don't know of any grandpas and grandmas on the

Thompson side.

1403 Q Okay, all right. And there's different people

who they may call grandma or grandpa?

A Could be, yeah.

1404 Q And if they ever used the word "grandma" in

those interviews, did you ever know who they

were talking about?

A I think that was specified.

1405 Q And who would that be?

A Well, I don't recall a specific incident there,

but I do recall with Donald White they named him

different things and we articulated that.

1406 Q As it relates to Marie Klassen, I know we went

through this yesterday, but you didn't know

until you showed up at the door that she was

feeble?

A That's right.

1407 Q You didn't know the extent of it?

A Not at all.

1408 Q So I'm just going to ask you this question: When

you learned that it may have been a grandma or

grandpa that assaulted a child, was it your

practice prior to 1990 to at least show up, find


254

out if the grandma or grandpa might have been

able to carry out the acts alleged?

A Well, certainly. But the other side of that is

this goes back several years, there's nothing

saying that was the same condition then.

1409 Q Sure, but it would be your job to find out,

though, wouldn't it, to find out if the person

was as feeble in 1987, let's say, as they were

in 1990?

A I would suggest that even at time of arrest

there's nothing saying she couldn't have carried

out a sexual assault on a child.

1410 Q So that even at the time of arrest there was

nothing to indicate to you that she couldn't

have carried out the sexual act in a bathtub?

A I'm not sure about bathtub. I recall bathroom

with her, I don't recall bathtub.

1411 Q Well, I'll just see if you can refresh your

memory on this. The children, and I'm talking

about Kathy particularly, referred to having sex

with Marie Klassen in a bathtub.

A Okay.

1412 Q And are you saying based on what you saw on the

day you arrested Marie Klassen you feel that she

could have had sex with somebody in a bathtub?

A Well, with her, as I recall, the allegations


255

were of touching, of fondling. I think that's

possible.

1413 Q All right. So based on what you saw that day,

that was possible?

A Certainly.

1414 Q Now, did you ever go back and tell Matt Miazga

that, in fact, you saw Marie Klassen use a

walker on the day that you arrested her?

A I don't recall.

1415 Q You don't know if that information was ever

imparted to him?

A I don't recall.

1416 Q Now was there a time in your investigations that

you decided to visit with neighbours of Diane

Kvello?

A Yes.

1417 Q And we talked about that to some degree. Did

you also visit with employers of any of the

plaintiffs?

A Well one of the employers of one of the

plaintiffs came forward with a concern when he

heard about the case.

1418 Q So who would that be?

A That was Louis Dupuis.

1419 Q And he came to you, specifically?

A I don't recall if he came to me specifically, or


256

Social Services, I really don't recall how that

unfolded.

1420 Q Did you have a talk with Louis Dupuis about the

Kvellos?

A Yes.

1421 Q And do you recall what you told the Dupuises at

that time?

A Not specifically.

1422 Q Did you suggest to them that they were involved

with other family members in sexual abuse of

children?

A I believe it would have been more along the line

that they were under investigation, and that the

Dupuis children had been cared for there and

that's a concern for us.

1423 Q So you may have visited the Dupuises because you

learned that the Dupuis children had been over

at the Kvellos?

A Right.

1424 Q So it's probably more likely that you visited

the Dupuises than they visited you; is that

correct?

A I don't recall that.

1425 Q Now, was there any reason to follow Sherry

Kvello when she went into parks, when she was

actually babysitting?


257

A I don't know anything about that.

1426 Q So you don't recall at all finding Sherry Kvello

in a park with a small child?

A No.

1427 Q And watching her from the sidelines?

A No.

1428 Q Did you follow any of the accused before you

actually charged them?

A No.

1429 Q You did make visits to some people, some

neighbours?

A Yes.

1430 Q I'm going to have to ask you these questions as

it relates to Dennis and Diane Kvello, did you

visit the Grunows?

A The Grunows, yes.

1431 Q Did you visit any other neighbour in their

vicinity?

A Yes, an Oriental couple next door.

1432 Q And did you also tell the Grunows and the

Oriental couple that the Kvellos were under

investigation for sexual abuse of children?

A Yes.

1433 Q Why did you think that was necessary?

A With the Oriental couple, again, it was a child

care issue, a concern for safety of children. I


258

don't recall with the Grunows what the situation

was there, whether we visited them or whether

again we were contacted by them.

1434 Q But nevertheless, you did talk to the Grunows?

A Well, I took a statement from John Grunow.

1435 Q And did you, in fact, know the Grunows to have

small children?

A No, I didn't.

1436 Q Was there anybody else in the neighbourhood of

Diane and Dennis Kvello that you spoke to

regarding this investigation of child abuse?

A No.

1437 Q And the next party would be Richard Klassen and

Kari Klassen, did you visit any of the

neighbours of that couple?

A No.

1438 Q Did you visit any of their employers?

A No.

1439 Q Did you visit any of the neighbours of Pamela

Klassen?

A No.

1440 Q Did you visit her employers?

A No.

1441 Q Her employer happened to be the Department of

Social Services; is that correct?

A Right. I guess I did visit the Department of


259

Social Services.

1442 Q Marie Klassen, did you visit any of her

neighbours?

A Not that I recall.

1443 Q What about John Klassen and Myrna Klassen?

A No.

1444 Q You didn't visit any of their neighbours?

A I shouldn't say that. When we were trying to

find them in Lethbridge we went to the

neighbours to see if they'd seen them.

1445 Q You never had a chance to talk to the neighbours

and to advise them that they were being

investigated for sexual abuse of children?

A No.

1446 Q What about Peter Dale Klassen and Anita Janine

Klassen, did you visit their neighbours?

A No.

1447 Q They employer partly was, of course, the

Department of Social Services through the foster

parent program?

A Well they were in Red Deer by the time I visited

them.

1448 Q Did you visit any of their employers in Red

Deer?

A No.

1449 Q So basically, the only neighbours that you


260

visited were in reference to the Kvello family?

A That's right.

1450 Q And you have no recall of ever having followed

Sherry Kvello?

A No. I would preface the "employer" with the

fact that it was a concern for the children, it

wasn't the idea of visiting the employer, it was

that these children had been in child care there

and they happened to be the employer's children.

1451 Q Yes, Dupuis?

A That's right.

1452 Q Louis Dupuis?

A That's right.

1453 Q All right. So nevertheless, you went and had a

talk, and was it a long talk that you had with

them?

A I don't recall.

MR. BORDEN: It's getting close to 11:30,

what's your druthers, shall we continue --

MR. GERRAND: Let's go off the record.

(Discussion off the record)

MR. BORDEN: Do you have copies of the

Thompson notes here?

MR. GERRAND: I'm sure we do.

MR. BORDEN: While you're looking for those

may I refer to this document.


261

1454 Q This is a document we just received today. It

was listed in the defendants' statement as to

documents, that of Matt Miazga and Sonja Hansen,

we've asked for a copy and Mr. McKillop just

provided it to us in the mail this morning. I

just wondered if you could take a look at that

to see if you have ever seen that before?

A I don't recall ever having seen this.

1455 Q So what I've just shown you is a document which

purports to be document number 327-2 of the

defendant Miazga's statement as to documents.

It's a diary of Crystal and Trevor Morin, and

you've never seen that before?

A No.

1456 Q Then there's no sense in dealing with it. Did

you receive from any of the children any of

their diaries or other material that might be

helpful in putting the picture together? Let me

make that clear. From 1989 to 1991 did you ever

receive a diary or any other descriptions in

writing from the children?

A I don't recall ever having received any.

1457 Q Did you ever ask for anything from any of the

children?

A No.

1458 Q Did Social Services ever tell you that there


262

were other documents?

A Not that I recall, no.

1459 Q To be very clear, who was the point person at

the Department of Social Services that you dealt

with after you became involved in this matter in

1989?

A As I say, there were so many. I was thinking

about it last night. I remember Anita Gross, I

believe was in charge of the children when they

went to Warman, I believe she was. I remember

Sheila Gagne. As I said yesterday, Liz Newton,

I think Carol Middleton had some involvement in

it at the beginning. Janet Matkowski. Those

are the names I remember; but point person, I

really can't remember.

1460 Q Now I want to take you to another period of time

and that is at the time you signed the informa-

tion, Exhibit P-2, I believe the date was July

the 6th.

A I believe that's right.

1461 Q And that would be 1991?

A Right.

1462 Q Now just prior to your signing those

informations as the informant against the

plaintiffs did you confer with a prosecutor?

A Yes.


263

1463 Q And did a prosecutor give you the go-ahead to

lay those charges?

A Actually, two prosecutors did, as I recall, Matt

Miazga and Sonja Hansen.

1464 Q Was there any other prosecutor involved in that

decision making, for instance, was there a

Richard Quinney in Regina, as far as you knew?

A As far as I knew, not.

1465 Q Was there a Fred Dehm who may have headed up the

department here in Saskatoon?

A Not that I'm aware of.

1466 Q Was there a Wilfred Tucker?

A Not that I'm aware of.

1467 Q Was there a Terry Hinz?

A Not that I'm aware of.

1468 Q So the only two prosecutors that you dealt with

were Matt Miazga and Sonja Hansen, both

defendants in this action?

A That's right.

1469 Q Prior to your actually issuing these informa-

tions, signing them, did you ask them what

charges to lay?

A I was instructed by them what charges to lay.

1470 Q Okay. So the laying of the charges, then, was

upon the instructions of the prosecutors?

A That's right.


264

1471 Q It's not the reverse, you didn't go to them and

say, hey, I've got charges here, I want to lay

these?

A Well, I believe I went to them with the file or

when they called me in, and said, I believe I

have charges here, I need you to review it, as

normally -- or not normally done, but was done

in that case. And when they, then, came back,

if you'll see, I think it's on the investigation

reports, on the instructions of Matt Miazga.

1472 Q So on the instruction of Matt Miazga you laid

certain charges?

A That's right.

1473 Q Your job was to do an investigation and then to

bring it to a prosecutor?

A As I said earlier, it wasn't always done that

way in 1990 but I did with this file, yes.

1474 Q And the reason you did it in this file was?

A The complicatedness of the file.

1475 Q Number of accused, number of children?

A That's right.

1476 Q And you brought to Matt Miazga and Sonja Hansen

the packet, which I think we've marked as

Exhibit P-1 in these proceedings?

A That's right.

1477 Q And then, in addition, you must have given them


265

some video tapes?

A That's right.

1478 Q Did you give them anything else?

A I imagine the audio tapes went to them.

1479 Q And whose audio tapes were those?

A The interviews that I had done, Harvey Hinz

(phonetic) Beryl Stonechild. I'm not sure what

other ones. The interviews in Red Deer.

Certainly, I would have turned over the Thompson

notes that I had in my possession at that time,

gave them to them.

1480 Q So what you gave them was your packet, Exhibit

P-1, not the blue sheets attached to it. Do you

have Exhibit P-1 there?

A Well, it's more than P-1. P-1 doesn't contain

all of the other papers.

MR. GERRAND: And in fairness to the witness,

it wasn't his evidence that he gave P-1 to

Miazga and Hansen. His evidence was that he

gave it to Hinz and then he was contacted by

Miazga at a later time.

MR. BORDEN: Yes, fine.

1481 Q So what happened is you gave that packet,

Exhibit P-1, to Terry Hinz, the prosecutor?

A Right.

1482 Q That packet, ostensibly, did not include the


266

blue pages at the back of Exhibit P-1?

A Right.

1483 Q And then later on you learned that someone else

had your packet, Exhibit P-1?

A That's right.

1484 Q And you learned that person to be?

A Matt Miazga.

1485 Q And also Sonja Hansen?

A That's right.

1486 Q And then there was other information that you

wanted to make sure that those two prosecutors

got?

A That's right.

1487 Q So you would at that time bring them the tapes

of the interviews with the children?

A That's right.

1488 Q Terry Hinz didn't have the opportunity to see

those interviews, I take it?

A I don't think he ever asked for them.

1489 Q Also another group of documents that you would

bring would be the Dr. Yelland reports?

A That's right.

1490 Q And those would be the reports which in these

proceedings we have marked as Exhibit P-5?

A That's right.

1491 Q And you would bring audio tapes to Matt and


267

Sonja?

A Right.

1492 Q And you would also bring with you probably some

of the interview tapes of some of the accused?

A Right.

1493 Q Not all accused having been interviewed?

A That's right.

1494 Q And so as far as you knew that's what the

prosecutors had before they told you to lay the

charges?

A That's right.

1495 Q There could have been, not that you knew, but

there could have been Department of Social

Services' documents over there at the

prosecutor's office?

A There could have been.

1496 Q There could have been a whole truckload of

documents but, as far as you knew, all the

documents that you had given were the ones

you've just described?

A That's right.

1497 Q And so then you waited for a decision to be

made, that was not your call, was it, whether

charges should be laid?

A That's right.

1498 Q Did anyone want to make it your call?


268

A Not that I recall.

1499 Q And you waited?

A That's right.

1500 Q And then it was Matt Miazga that said lay the

charges. And when he said that, did he give you

a copy of an information, did he say who those

people would be and what Criminal Code section

numbers?

A I'm not sure if he did or how that came about, I

really don't recall.

1501 Q You don't know who prepared the charges against

the plaintiffs?

A No, I'm not sure.

1502 Q Who would do that normally?

A Normally it would be done in Central Records at

the police station.

1503 Q And when prosecutors are involved is it still

Central Records?

A No, they would do it in their office, then, I

assume.

1504 Q Usually, isn't it the case that prosecutors,

once they have the file, will issue the charges

right out of their own office?

A Usually, yeah.

1505 Q And then they'll just find an informant to sign

the charges?


269

A That's right.

1506 Q In this particular case they wanted you to sign?

A That's right, rather than sending it -- normally

it goes to the court house and the court officer

there signs it.

1507 Q So in this particular case it was the

investigating officer, Sergeant Dueck, at the

time?

A Right.

1508 Q Well, then, after the charges were laid there

must have been other information came to you,

let's say by way of letters, correspondence,

there must have been other documents that came

to you?

A I believe that I requested documents or reports

from University Hospital on behalf of the

prosecutors. I think those related to the Alvin

Buckwold Centre psychiatric assessments that

were done.

1509 Q And what you're saying, then, is your job didn't

end with signing those charges as informant, you

continued to do work?

A For a little while, yes.

1510 Q How long after the charges were laid did you

continue to do some investigative work?

A Not terribly long because I transferred out of


270

there in -- gosh, I can't even remember now. I

went back to the Drug Section. I can't remember

the date, it wasn't that long after, a few

months.

1511 Q A few months after the charges were laid and in

about September of 1991 you were out of there?

A That's right.

1512 Q What do you recall doing on behalf of the

prosecutors after that period of time?

A I don't recall doing anything for them after

that time.

1513 Q You got some documents, though, from University

Hospital?

A Yes, I mentioned those.

1514 Q And Alvin Buckwold documents, maybe?

A Yes. And I don't recall the exact date they

came. We have them, I believe you have them,

they would have a date on them. I can't recall

the date.

1515 Q But when it came down to whether charges should

be stayed or charges should be continued with,

did Matt Miazga ever confer with you after these

charges were, in fact, entered?

A No.

1516 Q You were signing as an informant?

A Right.


271

1517 Q And is there any reason why Matt Miazga or Sonja

Hansen wanted you to sign personally?

A I believe it had more to do with just the size

of the file. Rather than sending it to the

court house and having someone there check it

and go through it. I was familiar and I would

do it.

1518 Q Later on you know that charges were stayed

against Sherry Kvello?

A M'hm.

1519 Q And Sheldon Kvello?

A M'hm.

1520 Q Were you part of that arrangement?

A No.

1521 Q Were you part of any arrangement, once you had

left Youth and had gone into the Drug Section,

were you part of any arrangement whereby charges

would be stayed?

A No.

1522 Q Did you have any influence on the prosecution

after you had left the Youth Section?

A No, I was never informed or consulted regarding

the staying of any of the charges.

1523 Q Were you informed or consulted or even asked for

an opinion on any part of that prosecution after

you left the Youth Section?

A No.

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