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Brian Dueck's examination (7)


200

1080 Q That appears to be an information against

Sheldon Kvello?

A That appears to be, yes.

MR. BORDEN: If I could have that marked,

please.

EXHIBIT P-4: INFORMATION CHARGING SHELDON & SHERRY KVELLO

MR. GERRAND: I don't wish to interrupt, but it

relates to Sheldon and Sherry, does it not?

MR. BORDEN: Yes, it does, it relates to both

of them. I'm just dealing with Sheldon now, but

thank you for that.

1081 Q The first charge is that Sheldon Kvello and

Sherry Kvello did commit a sexual assault upon a

Michelle Mimi Ross, contrary to the provisions

of the Criminal Code. And the second is that

Sheldon Kvello did commit a sexual assault on

the person of Sarde Lynn Hardy, contrary to the

provisions of the Criminal Code.

Now I asked you, prior to questioning

you on Sheldon Kvello, to describe the people or

the documents upon which you formed your

reasonable and probable grounds. Would it be

fair to say that as it relates to Sheldon Kvello

the same things apply, that in forming your

reasonable and probable grounds you did not take

into account the Thompson notes?


201

A No.

1082 Q But you did take into account what each child

had to say?

A In my interview with them, yes.

1083 Q And so that as it relates to Sheldon, which

children would you have taken into account?

A It was Sarde Hardy and Michelle Ross.

1084 Q Would you have taken into account any other

child?

A Not that I recall.

1085 Q Would you have taken into account Dr. Yelland's

notes?

A Well certainly, they were the examinations of

the three children, yes, physical evidence.

1086 Q Now, was there any other document that you took

into account in forming your reasonable and

probable grounds against the plaintiff, Sheldon

Kvello?

A No.

1087 Q Was there any other person that provided --

A Not that I recall.

1088 Q And now as it relates to Sherry Kvello, I show

you again Exhibit P-4.

A Okay.

1089 Q You are the informant as it relates to the

plaintiff, Sherry Kvello. In forming your


202

reasonable and probable grounds did you take

into account the Thompson notes?

A No.

1090 Q Did you take into account the disclosures or

information gleaned from children?

A From one child, yes.

1091 Q And who was that child?

A Michelle Ross.

1092 Q Did you take into account the information or

disclosures of any other person?

A No.

1093 Q And did you take into account Dr. Yelland's

reports?

A Yes.

1094 Q Now as it relates to both Sherry and Sheldon

Kvello, did you cause search warrants to be

taken out with respect to their property or

their residences?

A No.

1095 Q Now as it relates to the Kvello family, then,

Dennis Kvello, Diane Kvello, Sheldon Kvello and

Sherry Kvello, did you find any physical

evidence to support the charges against them?

And by that I do not mean what people may have

said in interviews but by that I mean physical

evidence that would corroborate that there were


203

sexual acts with each of the children named in

the information?

A Other than what was stated in Dr. Yelland's

notes?

1096 Q Yes.

A No.

1097 Q I would like now to turn to my client, Kari

Klassen, she is the wife of Richard Klassen.

I'm going to ask that you review, please,

Exhibit P-2. And which charges relate to Kari

Klassen?

A I beg your pardon, I'm sorry.

1098 Q Yes, I'm sorry. Which paragraphs or charges

relate to Kari Klassen?

A Paragraph 1, paragraph 2, paragraph 3, and

that's it.

1099 Q All right. You were also the informant in

relation to the plaintiff, Kari Klassen; is that

correct?

A That's right.

1100 Q And did you cause to be issued a search warrant

as it relates to the property or the premises of

Kari Klassen?

A No.

1101 Q Now I've talked about a number of plaintiffs

this morning, all of the Kvellos and Kari


204

Klassen, I'm just going to ask whether you know

whether any other police officer may have caused

search warrants to be issued with respect to

them?

A Not that I'm aware.

1102 Q And prior to your signing the information and

just before you signed as informant, did you

take into account in relation to your reasonable

and probable grounds the Thompson notes?

A No.

1103 Q As it relates to Kari Klassen did you take into

account the disclosures or the statements made

by children?

A Yes.

1104 Q And which children did you take into account in

relation to the plaintiff, Kari Klassen?

A Michael, Michelle and Kathleen Ross.

1105 Q Any other person?

A No.

1106 Q Did you take into account Dr. Yelland's reports?

A Yes.

1107 Q Did you take into account any other reports or

statements made by any other person?

A No.

1108 Q And just to make it clear, and as it relates,

again, to all of the plaintiffs named, the four


205

Kvellos and Kari Klassen, the information that

you did take from the children was through the

video-taped interviews; is that correct?

A That's right.

1109 Q And there was no other interviews that you had

with the children other than those video-taped

interviews?

A That's right.

1110 Q And those video-taped interviews have been

disclosed in these proceedings?

A That's right.

1111 Q With respect to Pamela Klassen, I would ask that

you refer to which counts relate to that

plaintiff?

A Paragraphs, or charges 1, 2, 3 and 4.

1112 Q Prior to your signing as informant and in

forming your reasonable and probable grounds did

you take into account the Thompson notes?

A No.

1113 Q Did you cause or did any other person that you

know of cause a search warrant to be issued with

respect to the property or premises of Pamela

Klassen?

A No.

1114 Q In forming your reasonable and probable grounds

did you take into account the evidence of


206

certain children?

A Yes.

1115 Q By that I mean disclosures or statements made by

certain children just prior to your signing the

information.

A Yes.

1116 Q Who were those children?

A Michael, Michelle, Kathleen Ross and Trevor

Heinrichs.

1117 Q I take it, then, that there was no other person

or adult or child that provided you with any

other information to form the basis for those

reasonable and probable grounds against Pamela

Klassen?

A Crystal Heinrichs also disclosed but, as I

recall, it was only against Peter Klassen. I

don't recall whether Pamela was involved in that

or not, she was in Pamela's home.

1118 Q But nevertheless no charges were laid against

Pamela with respect to her?

A Well, I know that Crystal was in that

information, I'm not sure whether Pamela is on

that information or not. If I could look at it?

1119 Q Okay, fine.

A Should have another information that shows Peter

Klassen charged on the information of Crystal.


207

1120 Q Sure, did you want to take a look for the

information?

A The information I was referring to, I didn't

sign it, Al Tisdale, the court officer, signed

one against Peter Klassen for Crystal. So I

don't recall any other one for Pamela.

1121 Q Thank you. As it relates to Pamela Klassen you

know of no search warrant that was issued with

respect to her, then?

A That's right.

1122 Q And when you signed the information your

evidence was -- just to make it clear, and I

know we're going over the same material, but it

appears now there was Michael, Michelle and

Kathy's disclosures or statements and that of

Trevor Heinrichs that helped to form the

reasonable and probable grounds, together with

Dr. Yelland's report?

A That's right.

1123 Q The next party is Marie Klassen, and I'd ask

that you look at Exhibit P-2 and advise us as to

which charges were laid with respect to Marie

Klassen?

A One, two and three.

1124 Q And you were the informant as against the

plaintiff, Marie Klassen; is that correct?


208

A That's right.

1125 Q Prior to your signing the information did you

take into account the Thompson notes in forming

your reasonable and probable grounds?

A No.

1126 Q Did you or any other person you know cause to be

issued a search warrant with respect to the

property or premises of Marie Klassen?

A No.

1127 Q In forming your reasonable and probable grounds

did you take into account the disclosures and/or

statements of certain children?

A Yes.

1128 Q And who were those children?

A Michael, Michelle and Kathleen Ross.

1129 Q Was there any other person, child or adult that

may have provided information to you?

A No.

1130 Q And did you take into account in forming your

reasonable and probable grounds the reports of

Dr. Yelland?

A Yes.

1131 Q I take it that there was no other information

that you took into account in forming your

reasonable and probable grounds?

A No.


209

1132 Q I didn't get that last answer.

A I'm sorry. No.

1133 Q I'd like to now turn to the plaintiff John

Klassen. Did you sign an information with

respect to charges against John Klassen?

A Yes.

1134 Q I ask that you look at Exhibit P-2 and were you

the informant against that plaintiff?

A Yes.

1135 Q Just prior to signing the information, P-2, you

formed reasonable and probable grounds, did you

take into account in forming those grounds the

Thompson notes?

A No.

1136 Q Do you know of any search warrant that may have

been taken out either by yourself or another

party with respect to this plaintiff, John

Klassen?

A No.

1137 Q In arriving at the conclusion that charges

should be laid and in forming those reasonable

and probable grounds did you take into account

the disclosure and/or statements of any child?

A Children, yes.

1138 Q And who are those people?

A Michael Ross, Kathleen Ross, Michelle Ross,


210

Stephan Hardy, Shannivia Hardy and Sarde Hardy.

1139 Q As you look at Exhibit P-2 which particular

paragraphs relate to the plaintiff, John

Klassen?

A One, two, three and five, six, seven.

1140 Q Did you take into account any other document or

statement by an individual in forming those

reasonable and probable grounds?

A No.

1141 Q I'd like to now refer to the plaintiff, Myrna

Klassen, if you could look at Exhibit P-2, were

you the informant with respect to charges

against Myrna Klassen?

A Yes.

1142 Q And what paragraphs relate to that particular

plaintiff?

A One, two, three and five, six, seven.

1143 Q And was any search warrant issued by you or any

other person with respect to the property or

premises of Myrna Klassen?

A No.

1144 Q In forming your reasonable and probable grounds

as informant of that particular information, did

you take into account the disclosures and/or

statements of certain children?

A Yes.


211

1145 Q Who were those children?

A Michael, Michelle, Kathleen Ross, and Stephan,

Shannivia and Sarde Hardy.

1146 Q Did you also take into account the medical

reports of Dr. Yelland?

A Yes.

1147 Q Did you take into account statements made by any

other person or any other document?

A No.

1148 Q I'd like to now refer to the plaintiff, Anita

Janine Klassen. I'd like you to refer to

Exhibit P-2, the information. Were you the

informant with respect to charges laid against

the plaintiff, Anita Klassen?

A Yes.

1149 Q And prior to your signing the information you

had formed reasonable and probable grounds, in

forming those grounds did you take into account

the Thompson notes?

A No.

1150 Q Was a search warrant issued, as far as you know,

by yourself or any other party, with respect to

this particular plaintiff's property or

premises?

A No.

1151 Q In forming your reasonable and probable grounds


212

did you take into account disclosures and/or

statements of any children?

A Yes.

1152 Q What were the names of those children?

A Michael, Michelle and Kathleen Ross.

1153 Q Any other children?

A No.

1154 Q And which particular paragraphs of the

information relate to Anita Klassen?

A One, two and three.

1155 Q In forming your reasonable and probable grounds

did you take into account the reports of Dr.

Yelland?

A Yes.

1156 Q Did you take into account in forming your

reasonable and probable grounds information

received from any other person or document?

A No.

MR. BORDEN: Okay. If we can just take a

break at this point.

(Examination recessed briefly, then reconvened)

1157 Q We did deal with some of the plaintiffs

yesterday on the issue of criminal records, but

I would like to be more specific now. I'm going

to just ask you these names and you can indicate

whether you knew any of these people to have a


213

criminal record prior to you signing Exhibit P-

2, the information, or not. Dennis Kvello?

A I don't recall.

1158 Q Diane Kvello?

A Don't recall.

1159 Q Sheldon Kvello?

A Don't recall.

1160 Q Sherry Kvello?

A Don't recall.

1161 Q Richard Klassen?

A Yes.

1162 Q Kari Klassen?

A I don't recall.

1163 Q Pamela Klassen?

A I don't recall.

1164 Q Marie Klassen?

A I don't recall.

1165 Q John Klassen?

A I don't recall.

1166 Q Myrna Klassen?

A I don't recall.

1167 Q Peter Dale Klassen?

A I don't recall.

1168 Q Anita Janine Klassen?

A I don't recall.

1169 Q When a file is given over to the prosecutor's


214

office is it your job to have obtained from CPIC

or any other source a criminal record?

A No, it's done through our Central Records.

1170 Q And prior to your presenting a case into the

prosecutors for an opinion do you usually give a

copy of a criminal record with reference to the

suspect?

A I don't, no.

1171 Q So you don't bind that together with all of the

other documents you are submitting to the

prosecutor?

A No.

1172 Q But prior to your embarking on a major investi-

gation you would probably want to know if any of

the suspects had a criminal record; is that

correct?

A That's right.

1173 Q And do you make a request for that yourself?

A Yes.

1174 Q Do you give information to your Central Records?

A I would give them the names and ask them, who

they would run.

1175 Q All right. Do you recall getting a criminal

record on a Myrna Klassen at one time?

A As I said, I don't recall.

1176 Q Now, what information would you give to Central


215

Records in order to secure the particular

suspect's criminal record?

A Their proper name and their date of birth and an

FPS number if they have one. I would first go

to our local records to see if there was an FPS

number.

1177 Q Once you determine that there is, in fact, a

criminal record, do you get any kind of a

profile on the suspect? Let me give you an

example. Once you know you're dealing with a

person who's been convicted can you determine

whether or not that person has certain markings

on his skin, or scars, tattoos, is there a way

of doing that?

A On our local record system there is, if we've

charged them locally. I would believe there

would be on the criminal record check, too.

1178 Q As it relates to the plaintiff, Richard Klassen,

did you or any other person conduct a search

warrant of his property or premises?

A No.

1179 Q I'd like you to refer to Exhibit P-2, were you

the informant in charges relating to a Richard

Klassen?

A Yes.

1180 Q Do you know whether a search warrant was issued


216

by you or any other person with respect to the

property of or premises of Richard Klassen?

A I'm not aware of one. I didn't.

1181 Q In forming your reasonable and probable grounds

with reference to the charges against Richard

Klassen, did you take into account the Thompson

notes?

A No.

1182 Q In forming your reasonable and probable grounds

did you take into account the disclosures and/or

statements of children?

A Yes.

1183 Q What particular paragraphs relate to the

plaintiff, Richard Klassen?

A Paragraphs 1, 2 and 3.

1184 Q Which children's disclosures or statements did

you take into account in forming your reasonable

and probable grounds against the plaintiff,

Richard Klassen?

A Michael, Kathleen and Michelle Ross.

1185 Q Did you take into account the statements of any

other person, child or adult?

A No.

1186 Q And in forming your reasonable and probable

grounds did you take into account Dr. Yelland's

notes?


217

A Yes.

MR. BORDEN: Do you have, Mr. Gerrand, a copy

of Dr. Yelland's notes here?

MR. GERRAND: I'm sure we do. It's going to

take me a minute to turn them up.

MR. BORDEN: That's fine.

MR. GERRAND: Allow the witness to look and

confirm that those are the reports.

1187 Q MR. BORDEN: I have received from Mr. Gerrand

documents number 517 to 524, inclusive. Would

these be the reports of Dr. Yelland that you say

you reviewed prior to the laying of charges

against each and everyone of the plaintiffs that

I represent?

A That's right.

1188 Q And that would apply equally to Richard Klassen;

is that correct?

A Yes.

MR. BORDEN: If I could have those documents

marked as one exhibit.

EXHIBIT P-5: MEDICAL RECORDS PREPARED BY DR. YELLAND,

ADDRESSED TO LIZ NEWTON

1189 Q I had asked the question of you as to how you

formed your reasonable and probable grounds with

respect to each and everyone of the plaintiffs

and you said that in forming them you took into


218

account Dr. Yelland's notes?

A Right.

1190 Q Are those the particular notes you are referring

to?

A That's right.

1191 Q Exhibit P-5. If I may see those, please. Was

it your understanding that prior to Michelle

Ross, Michael Ross and Kathy Ross going to the

Thompson home that Dr. Yelland examined each of

the children?

A Prior to them going? I wasn't aware of that.

1192 Q Did anyone tell you that prior to the children

arriving at the Thompson home that Dr. Yelland

had already determined the children's medical

condition?

A No.

1193 Q Is it your understanding, then, that Dr. Yelland

only examined the children after they entered

the Thompson home?

A That was my understanding, yes.

1194 Q And when did the children enter the Thompson

home?

A Well, Michael it was the fall of '89, I believe,

I don't know the exact date. And the girls, it

was the spring of 1990.

1195 Q It's your understanding, then, that Dr. Yelland


219

examined the children after the fall of 1989?

A That was my understanding, yes.

1196 Q Did you make a request for these particular

reports personally, that is, Exhibit P-5?

A Sometimes I do. Sometimes they automatically

come through Social Services.

1197 Q How did you obtain these documents?

A As you can see, they're addressed to Social

Services and they were cc'd to me.

1198 Q And to make it very clear, there are no other

medical reports of Dr. Yelland that you

reviewed?

A Not that I'm aware of.

1199 Q In forming your reasonable and probable grounds

with respect to each and everyone of the

plaintiffs?

A Not that I recall.

1200 Q I'm going to just ask you to review Exhibit P-5

once more, just to make sure that that answer is

correctly stated.

A You will note here, Mr. Borden, that when

documents come through our department they're

stamped with a date.

1201 Q Yes.

A These last, the one marked Heinrichs, Morin --

MR. GERRAND: Give him the numbers.


220

A Okay, 520, 521 and 522, 523 and 524 didn't come

through our department. Wait a minute. I'm

sorry, 520 did.

1202 Q MR. BORDEN: Would it be fair to say, Mr.

Gerrand, that documents 521 to 524, inclusive,

did not come through the police service?

A Just a minute, this one did because that's my

writing, 522, 523 and 524 I'm not certain of. I

don't believe they came through our department.

1203 Q You've indicated 522, 523 and 524 may not have

come through your department?

A Those are dated June 7th, 1990.

1204 Q And whereas they may not have come through your

department, did you see documents 522, 523 and

524 prior to your laying the criminal charges

against each and everyone of these plaintiffs?

A I don't think so. I don't recall whether I did

or not.

1205 Q But what you do recall is that prior to the

laying of the charges each and every other

document that is attached to Exhibit P-5 you did

review?

A 517 to 520, 520 has my writing on it where I

changed the name Morin to Heinrichs. Even 521

I'm not sure of, and that relates to Trevor

Heinrichs.


221

1206 Q Well these are your documents, sir, do you know

where those documents came from, and I'm talking

about now documents 521 to 524?

A Where they came from, how they were produced?

If you look at the package here it's got "Matt"

written on it, I assume that's Matt Miazga.

They may have been sent to him.

MR. BORDEN: In any event, then, Mr. Gerrand,

to make it clear, I take it you have produced,

then, the documents that you received from the

solicitors for Matt Miazga?

MR. GERRAND: No. These are the documents that

were received by me from former counsel for

Superintendent Dueck and the Saskatoon Board of

Police Commissioners. These documents may well

have been in the possession of the police

department generally and Superintendent Dueck

has given you his evidence as to his recollec-

tions of his personal involvement with those

documents.

MR. BORDEN: What he said was that in

determining whether to lay charges against each

and everyone of the plaintiffs he did take into

account documents 517 to 520, inclusive.

MR. GERRAND: Fair enough.

MR. BORDEN: For the record, he's indicated


222

he's not sure about documents 521 to 524,

inclusive.

MR. GERRAND: Sure.

MR. BORDEN: I would have him undertake if he

can recollect whether or not he did see those

prior to the laying of the charges and if his

memory is somehow refreshed or he does remember,

that he makes that known to us.

MR. GERRAND: Sure. If it comes to

Superintendent Dueck's attention that he can

recall seeing those documents, we'll let you

know.

UNDERTAKING #3: ADVISE IF SUPERINTENDENT DUECK RECOLLECTS

THAT HE SAW DEFENDANTS' DOCUMENTS 521, 522, 523, 524 PRIOR

TO THE LAYING OF CHARGES

1207 Q MR. BORDEN: Superintendent Dueck, I had asked

you questions about criminal records, I think I

stopped at Richard Klassen. Do you know of a

criminal record relating to a Kari Klassen?

A Not that I recall?

1208 Q Pamela?

A Not that I recall.

1209 Q Marie?

A Pardon me?

1210 Q Marie.

A You already asked about that already.


223

1211 Q Okay, I'm sorry. And John Klassen?

A Not that I recall.

1212 Q Myrna?

A Not that I recall.

1213 Q Peter Dale Klassen, the father?

A Peter Dale Klassen, or the father?

1214 Q I'm sorry, Peter Dale Klassen, the son.

A Not that I recall.

1215 Q And Anita Janine Klassen?

A Not that I recall.

1216 Q Now, I represent all of the plaintiffs but for

Richard Klassen. Did any of my clients provide

anything in the nature of a confession to you

that he or she may have assaulted anyone of the

children named in information P-2?

A No.

1217 Q Was there any kind of admissions from anyone of

the accused that may have been made that would

assist you in laying the charges?

A Not that I recall.

1218 Q All right. I would ask you just to look at the

list of plaintiffs here and tell me who you,

personally, interviewed?

A Dennis and Diane Kvello. Richard and Kari

Klassen. Pamela Klassen at her home prior to

her arrest. Peter Dale and Anita Klassen.


224

1219 Q Who interviewed Sheldon and Sherry, to the best

of your recollection?

A No one that I'm aware of.

1220 Q Who interviewed John Klassen?

A No one that I'm aware of.

1221 Q Who interviewed Myrna Klassen?

A No one that I'm aware of.

1222 Q When you interviewed the plaintiffs personally

did you also record those interviews?

A Yes, I did.

1223 Q Did you record all of the interviews?

A As I recall, yes.

1224 Q And have you produced copies of those interviews

in these proceedings?

A I assume we have, yes.

1225 Q I'd like to go back to your first meeting with

Michael Ross, that was back in 1989.

A Right.

1226 Q Did Michael ever talk about the plaintiffs, all

of the people shown on our Statement of Claim.

Did he ever talk about anyone of the Klassens

back in 1989?

A Not that I recall, no.

1227 Q Was there anything to indicate or let you know

that he knew all of the Klassens or anyone of

the plaintiffs back in 1989?


225

A No.

1228 Q Would the same thing apply to Michelle Ross,

that you didn't know whether she knew the

plaintiffs?

A I wouldn't say that -- I wouldn't know that she

knew all of them, no.

1229 Q Did you think she knew some of them?

A Yes.

1230 Q As it relates to Michael, who do you think that

Michael would have known back in 1989?

A Well, he didn't give me names other than, I

mean, he was staying at Dale and Anita's, other

than that I have no idea.

1231 Q So you just presumed that since he was staying

at Dale and Anita's at least he knew them?

A Well I would assume, yeah.

1232 Q And since Michelle was staying at Dale and

Anita's in 1989 you presumed that she knew them?

A Yes.

1233 Q And as Kathy was also living at Dale and Anita's

you presumed that she knew them?

A Yes.

1234 Q Did you have any information that anyone of the

children knew any other of the Klassens or

Kvellos?

A Certainly information from Social Services that


226

indicated they would know some of the others.

1235 Q So the information that you had was from Social

Services that would lead you to believe that

they may know some of the other people?

A That's right.

1236 Q Who would be some of those other people from the

list of plaintiffs?

A Well, as I recall, I think Pam Klassen's name

came up and through that Peter and Maria

Klassen. I believe their home had been used as

a respite home at times.

1237 Q All right. What information did you have in

1989 that Michael, Michelle or Kathy would have

known the names of any of the plaintiffs'

children?

A Well, again, they're living in Dale and Anita's

home.

1238 Q Yes.

A And if they have contact with Pamela I assume

they know the children she had there. Other

than that, there was no information on any of

the others.

1239 Q So as it relates to Rick and Kari Klassen, their

names weren't even broached at that time?

A In 1989, no.

1240 Q Nor were the children of Rick and Kari Klassen?


227

A Not that I recall.

1241 Q It might be fair to say that there was nothing

in any of the documents that would even indicate

that anyone of the three Ross children knew Rick

or Kari Klassen, or their children?

A Not that I recall, no.

1242 Q The same thing that applied to Rick and Kari

that I've just asked you about, would apply to

Diane and Dennis Kvello; is that correct?

A Yes.

1243 Q And it would also apply to Sheldon and Sherry

Kvello?

A Yes.

1244 Q And would it also apply to John and Myrna

Klassen?

A Yes, I would say so.

1245 Q Now, would it apply, however, to Pam Klassen,

because it was a respite home, right?

A Right.

1246 Q So they obviously would know her?

A I think so, yes.

1247 Q They would obviously know Marie Klassen and

Marie Klassen's husband, Peter Klassen?

A Right.

1248 Q They would know the children of Dale and Anita

Klassen?


228

A I would assume.

1249 Q Now, based on your recollections of your

dealings with the Ross children in 1989, what

other children would they have know, if any?

A I don't recall.

1250 Q All right. So when you first met Michael in

1990, now, was that at Taco Time?

A That's right.

1251 Q Now which plaintiffs did he mention at that

time, can I just --

A I'm not sure --

1252 Q -- show you this?

A -- that at Taco Time he mentioned any

plaintiffs.

1253 Q All right. Okay, that's fair. Was Michelle or

Kathy at Taco Time at that time?

A Yes, they were.

1254 Q And did they mention any of the plaintiffs?

A No.

1255 Q So there weren't any disclosures, then --

A No.

1256 Q -- other than Michael uttered some words about

"safe"?

A That's right.

1257 Q Now when the children were at Taco Time were

they already removed from Dale and Anita's home?


229

A Yes, I believe they were.

1258 Q And it was your belief that the two girls had

been removed because of something that Michael

had said to the Department of Social Services

before?

A That's my belief.

1259 Q Yesterday you told me that you don't know what

was said exactly?

A Right.

1260 Q It's certainly, nothing that you have here

today?

A No.

1261 Q And it's certainly nothing that's contained in

the packet of material that you gave over to

Terry Hinz that ultimately ended up in the hands

of Matt Miazga at the prosecutor's office; is

that correct?

A M'hm.

1262 Q To this date, you don't know what Michael may

have said to the Department of Social Services?

A No. I assume it's in their reports.

1263 Q All right. Was it your understanding, though,

that Carol Bunko-Ruys had those reports?

A I have no idea.

1264 Q Well you must have had some idea because you

knew Carol Bunko-Ruys was involved with the


230

children?

A Right.

1265 Q And that she was involved with the children at

the time that the children went over to the

Thompson house?

A I'm not aware of that.

1266 Q You're not aware of that, either?

A No.

1267 Q So here you have now three children, Taco Time,

and you're not even sure if any of them know any

of the plaintiffs other than group B. Let me

tell you who group B is. Group B would be Peter

Dale Klassen, Anita Klassen and their children,

Marie Klassen, John Klassen and Pamela Klassen.

A Not John Klassen.

1268 Q I'm sorry, you're right. Marie Klassen and

Peter Klassen, the husband of Marie, and Pamela

Klassen.

A And I'm only assuming that because I've been

told that was a respite home.

1269 Q And group B would also include any other

children under the care of Pamela Klassen?

A I would say so.

1270 Q So those plaintiffs and those children are group

B. Now group A is Dennis Kvello, Diane Kvello,

Sheldon Kvello, Sherry Kvello, Richard Klassen,


231

Kari Klassen, John Klassen, Myrna Klassen, and

the children of each and every party I've just

mentioned.

A Right.

1271 Q Now, I want to deal only with Michael. When was

it that you first determined that Michael knew a

person by the name of, from group A, Dennis

Kvello?

A I would say in the taped interviews in the fall

of 1990.

1272 Q And so that would apply equally to any and all

of the other people from group A that Michael

told you in those interviews, whether or not he

knew them?

A That would have been the first time I got the

information from Michael, yes.

1273 Q All right. And as to identity of and his

ability to depict who those people were, we

would be able to go to those interviews and find

out how he identified those people?

A Right.

1274 Q There aren't any other interviews to look at

because, as you said, they were all video taped

and we have them all?

A I assume, yes.

1275 Q So the first time, then, obviously, that you


232

heard of Dennis Kvello was at a point when you

were interviewing Michael?

A Right.

1276 Q And that would apply to all the people in group

A? The first time you ever heard of any

allegations of sexual abuse as it relates to the

people in group A was when you were interviewing

Michael?

A Well, I'll clarify that now. I'm not sure

whether it was Michael that I interviewed first

who brought the name up or whether it was one of

the two sisters. I really can't recall.

1277 Q Sure, and that's fair, because you're inter-

viewing three children and at diverse times

during the months of October and November of

1990?

A That's right.

1278 Q So that now you are interviewing those children

and the names of the people in group A come up

first with either one of those three children?

A That's right.

1279 Q It may have been Michael, it may have been

Michelle, it may have been Kathy Ross?

A Right.

1280 Q And at any time did you provide to those three

children photographs of any of the plaintiffs?


233

A I'm not sure.

1281 Q Did you at any time in those interviews, or

prior to the children undertaking those

interviews, provide the children with photo-

graphs of the plaintiffs or the plaintiffs'

children?

A I don't recall. I don't believe so, but I don't

recall.

1282 Q Did you actually have photographs of each of the

plaintiffs prior to the interviews?

A Well, that's what I'm trying to remember. I do

recall some photos but I'm not sure if I ever

showed them to the children.

1283 Q Right. Well, you wouldn't want to show them to

the children would you, I mean that wouldn't be

part of the protocol, would it?

A No, it wouldn't.

1284 Q All right. So it's probable you didn't show

them to the children; is that correct?

A I would say so.

1285 Q Did you have any line-ups of any of the

plaintiffs so the children might be able to see

any of the plaintiffs in a line-up, be able to

identify them?

A No.

1286 Q There were no photo line-ups either, then?

A No.

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