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Brian Dueck's examination (5)


734 Q And who did you know that person to be at that


A Carol Bunko-Ruys.

735 Q Was there any other person who may have been

involved in their counselling?

A Not that I'm aware.

736 Q Or their therapy?

A Not that I'm aware.

737 Q Did you know of any doctors involved in their

therapy or counselling or treatment?

A Not at that time.

738 Q And did you know of any other people who may

have been involved with the Rosses on a medical

basis, including psychiatrists or psychologists?

A No.

739 Q So by the time that you're now interviewing

Michael Ross you would have had that whole

period of time from June 14th to October to, at

least, think about the case?

A Right.

740 Q But you wanted to do more than think about it,

I'm sure that you must have talked to Carol

Bunko-Ruys about it because you're now in the

midst of interviewing them and you'd like to

know where to go with those interviews?

A Well, I'm not in the midst of it but certainly I


talked to Carol in the meantime, yes.

741 Q So in the meantime, and that means between June

14th of 1990 and October of 1990 you would have

talked to Carol?

A Right.

742 Q Did you meet with her at your office?

A I don't recall.

743 Q And at any time that you met with Carol Bunko-

Ruys, one of the defendants in these

proceedings, was anyone of the children present?

A I really don't recall.

744 Q To the best of your recollection, if you look at

October of 1990, would that be the first time

you sort of saw Michael in a long time?

A Well, as I say, I remember stopping at Carol's

office a couple of times when the children were

there. I don't recall whether that was before

we did the formal, taped interviews or during

that time, or even after we had completed them.

745 Q But I think your evidence was this morning that

even if the children were there you certainly

weren't going to be interviewing them there?

A That's right.

746 Q And you weren't going to be asking them

questions there?

A That's right.


747 Q No way, you were going to do it right in the

proper room?

A That's right.

748 Q Under surveillance, a video-tape recording?

A That's right.

749 Q So in any event, when you finally did meet with

Michael you wanted to hear it in his own words?

A That's right.

750 Q And how many hours did you spend with Michael in

total, do you have any idea?

A I have no idea.

751 Q One would have to look at the video interviews

to know the total time. Which gets me back now

to the several people that Michael mentioned

during those taped interviews. And if I can

just point to Auntie Vi as being one of those

people. Now Aunt Vivienne is Anita's sister; is

that correct?

A I believe it is, yeah.

752 Q We haven't been favoured with many numbers on

some of your documents, and this may not even be

your writing, but I'm going to present a

document to you and see if it is?

A That's my writing.

753 Q All right. Now I'm just going to read it back

to you for the record, because it's not very


long. The first word is, "Vivienne (Anita's

sister)." LNV [sic] would be -- what would LNV

be, initials?

A Last name unknown.

754 Q Last name unknown, okay, LNU, sorry.

A LNU, yes.

755 Q "Kathy - Auntie Vivienne did it to me at her

house. Did it when she went to the bathroom.

Stuck her finger up her vagina." Now, did you

know, when Kathy told you that, the time frame?

A No, I didn't.

756 Q So if you didn't know the time frame how did you

know whether or not that statement was remote in

time, as we discussed earlier, or more recent?

A I didn't.

757 Q Because I think that you wanted to focus on some

of the accused that had some more recent

involvement with some of these children?

A That's right.

758 Q Now, Aunt Vivienne, there's no reference made to


A Right.

759 Q I'm just wondering where your question was as to

when this may have occurred?

A I'm not sure I asked it.

760 Q The other thing is, I take it that you didn't


visit with Auntie Vivienne?

A No.

761 Q And you just let it lie?

A That's right.

762 Q So that if things did happen, and there's words

"vagina" implying that there was sexual conduct

or misconduct going on, you would want to make

sure, I would think -- correct me if I'm wrong -

- that there's a perpetrator down south, of

children, that should be looked into. Did you

send any RCMP officer to look into this, as it

relates to Auntie Vivienne?

A No.

763 Q Here you have Kathy saying that things happen

with an Auntie Vivienne and that would mean to

me that she is a perpetrator, she is a

paedophile. You didn't go and see her, I take


A That's right.

764 Q You don't know if any other officer saw her?

A That's right.

765 Q And you didn't follow up on that?

A No, I didn't.

766 Q So if there was any credence to what Kathy said,

well, that's long gone, that's water under the

bridge; is that correct?


A Those are your words.

767 Q Okay, well, if those are my words and I'm wrong

you tell me how I'm wrong.

A Well, no, I didn't follow up on that.

768 Q All right. Did you have a chance to meet with

any of the Mayes or Hardy children? Now, I say

Mayes or Hardy children, they are the same

children, their last name being Mayes and

sometimes they're referred to as Hardy.

A That's right.

769 Q The way they're described in most documents is

"Stephan Mayes (Hardy)," you might just let us

know why that is?

A They were adopted by the Hardy family.

770 Q And their birth names were Mayes, I take it?

A That's right.

771 Q Did you have a chance to interview those


A Yes, I did.

772 Q Did you get disclosures from those children?

A From the oldest boy we had somewhat of a

disclosure, yes.

773 Q Now, as it relates to the oldest boy, would that

be Stephan?

A That's right.

774 Q And the disclosure is in relation to which


person or persons?

A I don't recall.

775 Q Was anyone charged with having sexually abused

Stephan Mayes?

A No.

776 Q Was anyone charged with having abused any of the

Mayes or Hardy children?

A No.

777 Q Now did Michael at any time say that the Mayes

children or Hardy children were involved in any

of these sexual experiences?

A I don't recall whether Michael said it


778 Q All right. As well, during those interviews

Michael referred to the "bad family" do you know

today who he was talking about?

A No, I don't.

779 Q Was there a point of time where you began to use

in your interviews lifelike dolls?

A Yes.

780 Q And whose idea was that, was that the idea of

Carol Bunko-Ruys' the expert, or you?

A We had them available, they're our dolls,

they're anatomically-correct dolls. I'd used

them in other situations, as well. I can't

recall whether it was I or Carol that decided to


use them.

781 Q Was that part of the protocol at that time?

A Yes, it was.

782 Q Later on, was that changed so that people at the

police station don't use anatomically-correct


A I don't know whether they do or not any more.

783 Q All you know is at that time it was allowed?

A That's right.

784 Q People didn't say to you, "What are you doing?"

A That's right.

785 Q So that when you let the children use knives and

forks and other things within that room, that

was allowed, as well?

A That's right.

786 Q Prior to interviewing the children did you,

yourself, take any steps to become more

conversant in the area of child interview


A Well, I can tell you that I did the best I could

but that between 1987 and 1992 there were no

child abuse investigator courses in Saskatchewan

at the police college, unfortunately. So that's

why some of the seminars and things that I tried

to get to. But no, specifically, other than

working with a partner when I first went in who


was very conversant in it, no, I didn't.

787 Q So at the beginning there was a person that was

quite conversant in interview techniques?

A I worked with Al Brooks who had a psychology

degree, clinical psychology degree, and I

learned a lot from him, he mentored me along.

788 Q He was your mentor and then he left?

A That's right.

789 Q And he left in what year?

A Left the Youth Section or the Department?

790 Q Youth Section, yes.

A Oh, probably '91, '92, somewhere in there.

791 Q Well, you're already in the midst of interview

techniques, using some of his techniques in 1989

and '90, aren't you?

A Certainly.

792 Q So even though you weren't given any specialized

courses you felt that at least Mr. Brooks had

helped you along?

A I believe Mr. Brooks did, I believe that there

were other social workers I'd worked with who,

you know, we talked a lot about interviewing and

how to do it, techniques, what best to do.

793 Q Sure. And in relation to those techniques you

would have gained some knowledge from Social

Services workers?


A That's right.

794 Q Can you give us some names of those people?

A Well, I've worked with many. Carol Middleton,

Janet Matkowski. As I mentioned before, Liz

Newton would have been another one I did some

cases with. There were a lot, just about every

case had a different social worker, I don't

remember them all.

795 Q And, of course, you were sort of left by

yourself in the Youth Section, you recognized

that you hadn't had any specialized courses?

A That's right.

796 Q But more than that, you recognized that none

were available?

A That's right.

797 Q And that just happened to be the way it was in

Saskatoon, Saskatchewan from 1989 to about 1992;

is that correct?

A Eighty-seven to '92, yes.

798 Q All right, so for a whole period of five years

no one had been providing you with those special


A That's right.

799 Q You had already been involved with the Youth

Section for about a year and a half before you

saw Michael London Ross?


A Yes.

800 Q And at that point of time when you started to

interview him in October of 1990, you had

interviewed a number of other children?

A That's right.

801 Q Using basically interview techniques that came

to you by osmosis, watching others?

A Probably a good term, yes.

802 Q And so that what I'm wondering about here is

who's overseeing your work in your police

department, was it --

A Staff-Sergeant Johnson. I don't even remember

who all my supervisors were. I know that Staff-

Sergeant Johnson was, I know that John Quinn was

the inspector. I'm not sure who else was there.

803 Q Well, as I recall, John Quinn was your


A Right.

804 Q But you had very little involvement with John

Quinn in terms of Michael Ross, Michelle Ross

and --

A I had very little involvement with Bud Johnson

regarding that, yes.

805 Q Essentially, they let you alone?

A That was basically it, yeah.

806 Q Alone to investigate not only the natural


parents, the Ross family, but about 12 other

people who are ultimately charged?

A That's right.

807 Q Left you alone to investigate Aunt Vivienne and

probably 40 other people that Michael had named

as having abused them?

A I'm not sure there were 40, but there were

others, yes.

808 Q Yes. Well, am I really off very much when I say


A I'm not sure.

809 Q We'll get to that list later on. So did you

ever say to any of your supervisors, the people

that you could go to when you needed help in the

police service, "I need to learn interviewing

techniques," did you ever say that to them?

A Yes, I did.

810 Q And what did they say to you?

A There were no courses available.

811 Q Now, there's no courses available in

Saskatchewan, we've got that?

A Right.

812 Q But were there any courses available in, let's

say, Alberta, Manitoba, anywhere in the west?

A I have no idea.

813 Q I don't think, around that period of time of


1987 to 1992 that police officers were confined

to taking courses only in Saskatoon,


A I can assure they almost were, here and Regina.

814 Q Are you saying that anything in relation to

arson investigation it was all done in Saskatoon

or Regina?

A The majority of it in Regina, at the police

college, yes.

815 Q And other courses, that was really confined to

this province?

A Well, there were courses offered in Ottawa, but

I'm not sure there was a child abuse

investigator's course.

816 Q Let me put it to you this way, did you take any

steps to find out what courses were available?

A I don't recall. I know that I asked for a

course or asked for some training, but I don't


817 Q And no one helped you with that?

A That's right.

818 Q And the result was, would you agree with me

here, that you may not have been the best person

to interview those children in terms of getting

out real, true disclosures?

A I have no idea. I don't know how you'd make


that judgment.

819 Q Okay. You were the best the police department

had at the time?

A I wouldn't say that either.

820 Q Who else was better than you that might have --

A I'm not saying anyone was. How would you judge


821 Q Yes. How does one judge who should be the

person to interview children, after all, there's

very few officers in the Youth Division, isn't


A That's right.

822 Q And at the time, in 1987, there was only a few

officers in that division?

A That's right.

823 Q Who were those officers?

A In '87?

824 Q Yes.

A I wasn't in there in '87.

825 Q In '88?

A Al Brooks, I believe Dennis Elias was in there,

Rod Moor was in around that time, I'm not sure

exactly then. There was always a rotation of

people through there.

826 Q And it's hard to say who would have been better

in terms of examining --


A It relates down to who is assigned the file.

827 Q Well, did you know much about this area of

leading questions in the interrogation of


A In the interrogation?

828 Q Yes.

A Interviewing. There's a difference.

829 Q Sure, and that's fine. In terms of the

interrogation of children, leading questions?

A Well, I wouldn't call it interrogation, I'd call

it interviewing. And yes, I was aware of

leading questions.

830 Q No, I want to call it interrogation.

A Okay, go ahead.

831 Q Because let me tell you why. There's two kinds

of youth, on the one hand there's a victim and

on the other hand there's a perpetrator. And

I'm sure there have been times when you've had

to deal with both?

A M'hm.

832 Q And in relation to dealing with the perpetrator

or the alleged perpetrator of a robbery with a

16 year old, you'd want to interrogate that

person, wouldn't you, according to law?

A Right.

833 Q So there are times when you ask pointed, leading


questions of that perpetrator?

A That's right.

834 Q But in other cases where you believe that you're

dealing with a victim of a crime, you may not

want to use leading questions?

A I would agree.

MR. BORDEN: All right. Maybe we should take

a break at this point.

(Examination recessed briefly, then reconvened)

MR. BORDEN: We'll resume the examination for

discovery of Brian Dueck.

835 Q Inspector Dueck, there was an article in the

StarPhoenix regarding the charges against the

Klassens and Kvellos published July 12th of

1991. I know that you don't have those media

reports in front of you so I'm just going to see

if you can recall these words, because you said

that you did read some of them.

MR. GERRAND: Just a minute, if you're looking

at a document -- are you looking at a document

now, as you phrase these questions?

MR. BORDEN: No. What I'm looking at is our

transcribed version of a document, yes.

MR. GERRAND: Is that a document that's been

disclosed in these proceedings?

MR. BORDEN: This is something we got off the


Internet, so this would be something we just got

off today, over the noon hour. Would you like

to see a copy of it?

MR. GERRAND: Yes, I would.

MR. BORDEN: I'll tell you what I'll do, Mr.

Gerrand, I will get a copy from the StarPhoenix

so that we'll have an original for you. I won't

even refer to that today, but I'll make a copy

for you in the meantime. I'll talk to Terry

Craig, if I'm able to find him.

WITNESS: Saskatchewan Human Rights


MR. BORDEN: Saskatchewan Human Rights


WITNESS: That's where he's working.

836 Q Earlier on this morning we talked about Michael

having sexual relations with other people, or

sexual touching with other people. You said you

like to refer to that as being sexually engaged

with other children his own age, do you --

A Basically.

837 Q -- remember giving that testimony?

A M'hm.

838 Q Do you recall that Michael has -- the allegation

that Michael had actual sexual intercourse with

a four year old named Gus Peerman (phonetic)?


A I have no idea about how old Gus Peerman is. I

remember a name Gus, but I have no idea how old.

839 Q If I told you that Gus Peerman was four at the

time, would you still say that Michael was

sexually engaged with other children --

MR. GERRAND: Don't put a premise, please, to

the witness, the witness has said he didn't know

how old and hasn't accepted that he had

knowledge as to how old Gus Peerman was. So for

you to phrase a hypothetical question based on

something that the witness hasn't acknowledged I

don't think is fair, Mr. Borden.


840 Q I'm not going to stipulate that Gus Peerman was

the victim, but surely, an 11 year old having

actual sexual intercourse with a four year old,

you would hardly call it sexually engaged with

that child, would you?

MR. GERRAND: Please don't answer the question.

We're not here to give opinions about the

characterization of sexual conduct with respect

to people in the abstract.

841 Q MR. BORDEN: Well, I don't think that Gus

Peerman was in the abstract, was he?

A I don't know Gus Peerman, sorry.

842 Q So in your investigations you never came upon


the name Gus Peerman?

A Not that I recall, no.

843 Q No idea who that person was?

A No.

844 Q And that's your evidence?

A That's my evidence.

845 Q Did Carol Bunko-Ruys ever tell you about a Gus


A I just said, I have no idea who Gus Peerman is.

846 Q Did you ever go to a school and help come to

some kind of disposition of the allegation that

Michael had sexual intercourse with a four year


A No.

847 Q Exhibit P-1 is a document, an investigation

report it begins with, and then occurrence

reports. There's also what's called a

continuation report, just so we can understand

these documents --

A The pages that follow the main page. The main

page will have an indexing of people involved,

the continuation report is just the pages that

follow, that's all.

848 Q All right. And as I understand it, you went

through and made notes on each of the accused,

which included the natural parents, the Rosses?


A M'hm.

849 Q Don White and then all of the Klassens and

Kvellos, who are my clients, and Richard

Klassen; is that correct?

A M'hm.

850 Q Now I had asked you this question earlier, I

said, well, why did it stop at just the Klassens

and Kvellos and you seemed to indicate that it

had to do with remoteness of time, referring to

the other people?

A I don't think it's only the remoteness of time,

it's where do you stop with the number of

accused here, that was another issue here. Or

suspects, let's call it suspects.

851 Q All right. So you first used the word number of

accused, where does it stop? I just have to get

into this. Until you brought it to the

prosecutor's office these people were just

suspects; is that correct?

A That's right.

852 Q You were just centring in on these people

because you had to stop somewhere?

A Well, I think that's one. Another one is the

amount of disclosure on some of the others, if

we could call them the periphery, the down south

people, there was very little disclosure there.


853 Q Sure. And you may want to go back to your notes

but as I understand there was all kinds of

disclosure in relation to Aunt Vivienne as it

related to Diane Kvello. In other words, far

more disclosure relating to Aunt Vivienne than

Diane Kvello, do you remember that?

MR. GERRAND: Don't answer the question. You

are not here to characterize the extent of the

disclosure in that fashion.

854 Q MR. BORDEN: You had said today, Mr. Dueck,

you said it had a lot to do with the amount of

disclosure, that was one of the key elements in

deciding which ones of the accused you would

proceed against.

MR. GERRAND: That's what he said.

855 Q MR. BORDEN: Now, so when you're talking about

the word "lots of disclosure," what do you mean

by that, then?

A What do I mean by the amount?

856 Q Yes.

A I don't recall there being a lot of disclosure

or significant disclosure on Aunt Vivienne.

857 Q I see. So you don't recall that at all?

A I recall some disclosure about her, but I don't

recall there being a lot of disclosure.

858 Q But that would be one of the elements before you


made decisions whether or not to charge

somebody, was the amount of disclosure?

A I think that would be an issue.

859 Q Okay, fine. Now you decided on going after not

only Dennis and Diane Kvello, but their

children. So you made that decision based on

the amount of disclosure in relation to the

children, Sheldon and Sherry, is that right?

A Right.

860 Q And then as it relates to, again, Aunt Vivienne,

there wouldn't, in your recollection, have been

as much and you would have made a decision not

to proceed as against her?

A That's right.

861 Q Would location have anything to do with it, in

other words, Diane and Dennis live in Saskatoon,

it's easier to go after somebody here than it

may be to go down to Maple Creek or Langenburg?

A It would be easier to do it here than there, but

I wouldn't say that would be the only factor

that you'd consider.

862 Q No, because the big factor was the amount of

disclosure, right?

A And corroboration of it, yes.

863 Q Okay, fine. Now, as we look at the Rosses, and

we're talking about the natural parents and Don


White, there was a bit of physical evidence

corroborative of the allegations; is that


A Physical evidence of the children?

864 Q Physical evidence that corroborated.

A Sexual assault?

865 Q The sexual assaults of the children?

A Yes, there was.

866 Q All right. And what I'd like to know now, was

there any corroborative evidence, other than the

medical condition of the children, that would

substantiate the allegations of sexual abuse by

anyone of the Klassens or Kvellos?

A The three children all disclosing similar fact.

867 Q Okay, similar fact.

A The three children plus Crystal Heinrichs, even

Trevor Heinrichs there was some disclosure. I

mean those were all corroborative of some of the


868 Q So the children, in a sense, corroborated each


A That's right.

869 Q Okay, fine. And so if the children had

corroborated each other in terms of Aunt

Vivienne that would be some evidence against

Aunt Vivienne?


A That would be some, yeah.

870 Q So that you would want to centre on Aunt

Vivienne as well as these other people?

A That depends. It was a judgment call.

871 Q All right. In terms of the judgment call,

though, when you went to first Terry Hinz, you

had already picked the people that you thought

were the suspects, the people that the

prosecution should look at?

A I think so, yeah.

872 Q And you said that list has to stop somewhere?

A Well, I think that in the initial part of the

case, yes, let's start with this and if there's

more to be done from there then let's continue.

873 Q You take your cue from the prosecutors at that


A That's right.

874 Q So that the suspects were -- and I'm sorry, I

have to give you this list, but I'm going to

remind you of it again -- Dennis Kvello, Diane

Kvello, Sheldon Kvello, Sherry Kvello, Richard

Klassen, Kari Klassen, Pamela Klassen, Marie

Klassen, John Klassen, Myrna Klassen, Peter Dale

Klassen, Anita Janine Klassen and Peter Klassen,

the father. Followed by Donald Ross, Donald

White and Donald Ross's wife?


A Helen.

875 Q Ross, yes. Those are the people you presented

to Matt Miazga?

A That's right.

876 Q And essentially, what that meant was, Matt,

here's what I've got on these suspects?

A That's right.

877 Q And all they were is suspects?

A Right.

878 Q You have no control at that point of time over

who gets charged?

A That's right.

879 Q And, as a matter of fact, you left it to the

prosecutors, which you will do in certain cases?

A That's right.

880 Q Did you decide to leave it with the prosecutors

in this case?

A I did. That's what I was waiting for is a

review of the case to advise whether there were

charges and what they would be.

881 Q All right. So that essentially you brought what

you had and now it's for someone else to make a

decision on charging these individuals?

A That's right.

882 Q At that moment you had really very little

control over the process, did you not?


A Well, I would say, yeah.

883 Q The process is that once you deliver the

material to the prosecutors, the prosecutors

make decisions regarding charging?

A Yes.

884 Q Now sometimes you will charge people on your own

without even conferring with the prosecutor?

A That was done back in 1990, it's not done any

more on these cases.

885 Q Yes. However, in this particular case you even

conferred with a prosecutor by the name of Matt

Miazga before charges were laid?

A Matt Miazga and Sonja Hansen.

886 Q And Terry Hinz to some degree?

A That's who the file was left with.

887 Q Although you weren't sure of his involvement in

it because you really didn't talk to him?

A That's right.

888 Q What you did is you dropped it off but you never

talked to Terry Hinz?

A I spoke to him briefly when I dropped it off, as

I referred to earlier.

889 Q When you say briefly, was that a five-minute

conversation, half an hour, an hour?

A I don't recall. No, it wasn't half an hour or

an hour, it was much less than that.


890 Q In any event, later on you knew that someone in

that office had assigned Matt Miazga and Sonja

Hansen to investigate this further?

A That's right.

891 Q Did anyone tell you that no charges should be

laid until such time as the prosecutors reviewed

the material?

A No.

892 Q Did you await the decision of the prosecutors as

to whether charges should be laid?

A Yes.

893 Q And then one day it was said to you that charges

would be laid?

A That's right.

894 Q Again, the decision as to who those people were

was left in the bailiwick of the prosecutors?

A That's right.

895 Q You, yourself, didn't complain as to who those

people were?

A No.

896 Q And did you say to Matt Miazga or Sonja Hansen

after the list was given to you of who would be

charged that there should be some people added

to that list?

A No.

897 Q So when Matt Miazga and Sonja Hansen did advise


you as to who would be charged, you were content

with that decision?

A Well, that's a difficult question. I'm not sure

content is the word, I mean, I accepted that


898 Q That's all right, if accepted that decision is

the way you want to communicate it. Did you

complain to anybody about that decision?

A No.

899 Q And you just knew that the process would take

some time and ultimately, hopefully, justice

would be done; is that correct?

A That's right.

900 Q You are just one part of this judicial machinery


A That's right.

901 Q Everything starts in your office but then

ultimately gets into the prosecutor's office?

A Right.

902 Q Who, in fact, laid the charges against each of

the plaintiffs, do you remember?

A Who swore the informations?

903 Q Yes.

A I did.

904 Q All right. So you were the person that

determined that there would be reasonable and


probably grounds?

A That's right.

905 Q And what I'd like to do, and to give you some

time, I'm sure that you may want to have the

evening to reflect on this, but I'm going to be

asking you, sir, as to the reasonable and

probable grounds that you believe you had

against each and everyone of the plaintiffs, I'm

going to be asking that question tomorrow,

giving you some time to reflect on some of your

notes and documents and asking you on what basis

you would swear an information alleging, for

instance, that Diane Kvello had committed sexual

offences against certain children?

Before we get on to that, I would

like to know whether or not you were subpoenaed

to testify at a preliminary hearing involving

the many Klassens and Kvellos?

A At the preliminary hearing?

906 Q Yes.

A No, I was not.

907 Q So would it be fair to say that you showed up,

at least, at the preliminary hearing?

A I believe I was there a couple of times, yes.

908 Q I may be way off base with this, but I always

thought that the investigating officer would


provide some testimony at these preliminary

inquiries, particularly since the investigating

officer is the one --

MR. GERRAND: What's the question?

909 Q MR. BORDEN: Yes. Did you, in fact, testify

at the preliminary hearing?

MR. GERRAND: He's already said that he didn't.

910 Q MR. BORDEN: Yes. And you weren't subpoenaed

to testify at the preliminary hearing?

A No.

911 Q And did you ever ask Matt Miazga whether you

could testify?

A No.

912 Q Do you recall bringing to that preliminary

hearing any transcripts?

A Transcripts of what?

913 Q How about interviews of children?

A No.

914 Q How about bringing to that preliminary hearing

the actual video tapes of your interviews with

the children?

A No, Matt was in possession of them long before

the preliminary hearing.

915 Q All right. You didn't have to bring with you a


A No.


916 Q Do you recall being at any part of the

preliminary hearing of the Klassens and Kvellos

in these proceedings, where they were charged?

Do you remember being there even for a moment?

MR. GERRAND: I don't understand the question.

917 Q MR. BORDEN: At the preliminary hearing of the

Klassens and Kvellos did you show up even for a

moment to talk to anyone of the prosecutors?

MR. GERRAND: Now, just a minute. Are you

talking about at their initial court appearance?

MR. BORDEN: I said at the preliminary


MR. GERRAND: Okay. But you say at the

preliminary hearing where they were charged, I

don't understand that concept.

918 Q MR. BORDEN: Okay. Perhaps I should begin by

saying that the Klassens and Kvellos were

charged with sexually assaulting children, we

all know that. They also had a preliminary

hearing --

A Right.

919 Q -- with respect to those charges. Did you show

up for even a moment at that preliminary hearing

involving those charges?

A I really don't recall. I believe that I was

there once or twice, but I really don't recall.

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